where is the blast of john foster dulles? some had no idea simon had no idea who john foster dulles was. [laughter] it is a long story but with the help of the measure to talk long -- metropolitan airport authority i tracked down the of bust of john foster dulles it is in a closed conference room opposite baggage claim number three. [laughter] this really reflects what has happened to the reputation of the dulles brothers it is my idea to show how influential they were but it is a biography of these two remarkable figures but it is more than that. i try to use the framework of biographies tarasco larger question which is why does the united states asked -- act the way that it does? why are we like this every time there is a crisis or confrontation or upheaval of bangladesh or bolivia we feel we have to take sides? what do we do? off the idea we sit back and say the bangladesh war bolivia has a problem they will resolve it we will see what, unfolds it is inconceivable to the dulles brothers and keith that is a strain that has w

u.s., and i think that there was some contrast between what he thought and what somebody like john foster dulles thought. and he apparently did think that the u.s. could sort of by pakistan and its loyalties, that the u.s. provided enough military aid to pakistan was developed the same strategic interests as the u.s. and so what do you think it accounts for, these differences. and has anything really changed? and we still have the same debates going on? >> we come to the subject of change and what has not changed, so let's go to the beginning. so when he came to the united states, he said you have no realistic expectations and you really want military assistance to confront india and we have no interest in new fighting india. and you have a total on the list the expectation of this and pakistan's first request was for $2 billion in 1947 in the united states could only give a certain amount and it was a big delusion. he was most known for devising or conceptualizing things because he understood what the soviets wanted. and that is part of them getting in bold and having a pool of experts. but the

. >> john foster dulles. >> i've been to the airport.aughter] [laughter] >> they dropped the overthrow of most of -- >> that seems to be a habit of ours. we don't like the one running guatemala were running the air on. these things do kind of -- or we don't like who's running cuba, that kind of thing. it's one thing for a government to want to hope for foreign leaders who would perhaps it's not in our interest at least, but you know the thing about the united states is at our founding -- in the declaration of independence defines our beliefs and our theory of government is that it should be based on the consent of the governed. so by definition, the idea that americans would go abroad and to try to like monkey with other countries rulers is a contradiction. it is at best a critical. is that what you're talking about? >> also the religious fervor -- >> the difference with hawaii is that the original missionaries, the ones who came in the 1820s and 30s, they were not the ones who overthrow the queen. it's their children are the ones who we