john heilemann, i want to start with you. there was a time when, it was so apart, oh, nobody would trust the process, and here we are -- i guess it's not morning anymore -- that's the kind of week i've had -- the day after the fourth criminal indictment of donald trump. >> yeah, look, nicolle, the unusual has become the usual. at the un-indictable have become indicted. perhaps the unconvictable will become convicted. i think the arguments that people put forward, they're very similar sets of arguments of why you can't indict sitting president, this notion of -- injecting politics in some way into the legal process. you know, that's been a thing that people of goodwill have expressed over many, many decades. before donald trump you had people like eric holder, a progressive to the core of his bones, expressing the kinds of arguments like you summarized a second ago. all of them have fallen away, not just because seeing him indicted four times, but also in the process of getting to the four indictments, the depth, the scale, th

and i rarely, john heilemann, can attest to this, i rarely give our viewers homework.'t believe i'm telling you this, but please listen to the whole thing. i mean, it is trump's hands on the steering wheel of trying to cheat his way into the presidency, trying to deny the will of georgia voters. and to your point the first time we got to talk to you, tim, all that's come out since has made the evidence against trump stronger, has made it more clear how concerted the effort was, how wide it was and how deep it was. what is your sense in terms of what fani willis has developed and what may be imminent in georgia? >> look, i think what fani willis has developed is much what we laid out, nicolle, in our report. what we laid out in our hearings. some of it's included in the special counsel's indictment. the facts here have been relatively plain for a while. and they are shocking. you're exactly right. the call itself, the january 2nd call between the former president and secretary raffensperger just on its face, if you listen to it, is shocking. it's the president of the un

let's bring into the conversation nbc news national affairs analyst john heilemann. ople of being weak and scared if they didn't go to debates? >> yeah, i think that was him. it's also donald trump you'll recall was the one who understood the power of ubiquity at a time when no one thought he could be the republican nominee let alone president, that the way in which he made his case for himself was just by turning up for anything, anyone would have him he'd go. i believe he missed one debate -- one controversial debate where trump was not stage in the 2016 race. it would have been inconceivable in a preindictment donald trump he would not be on the debate stage on the first night with a giant audience watching. things have changed in a million ways and this is one of them. >> and jen psaki, let's you and i talk. i'll talk as a poor country lawyer, a dumb country lawyer and you can talk to us as a great political strategist. i can tell you as a lawyer i'd be telling my client if it were donald trump stay off that stage. you'll be goaded. you'll make admission that are

john heilemann, rusty bowers is no longer in office in arizona.pport who are refused to carry out the coup, because rudy told him there was no evidence, just theories. all of the people who, when the question was throw away the votes of the people in my state, not all of them went along, but not all of them are still is there. >> that's right, nicolle. they're on the other side of the ledger. brad raffensperger the case of governor kemp, those are complicated cases. those two gentlemen fought, you know -- refused to go down the trump road, refused to become an election denier. beat david perdue in 2022, and then won by nine. you know, that's a guy who's been rewarded political. in a state like georgia where a lot of suburban republicans don't have any taste for donald trump, there's an incentive structure that's set up there that could reward politically reward taking -- doing the right thing there's also a lot of crazy there. >>> all right. no one is going anywhere. after the break, we'll turn to another story out of georgia. the line is long for

katty kay, jonathan lemire and john heilemann are back with us. 2020 election in that state. among the 19 charged alongside the former president, his personal attorney rudy giuliani, his former chief of staff mark meadows. nbc news correspondent blaine alexander has details. >> reporter: the former president of the united states is charged with being part of a criminal enterprise. >> the indictment brings felony charges against donald john trump. >> reporter: fani willis announced she is charging 19 people with trying to overturn the 2020 presidential election in georgia, an effort she says was led by mr. trump. the former president is facing 13 felony counts, including multiple conspiracy charges. >> the defendants engaged in a criminal racketeering enterprise. >> reporter: willis has charged all of the defendants with violating georgia's rico act, a statute first used to prosecute organized crime. it includes a fake electors scheme, breach of voting machines, and the phone call from trump to brad raffensperger. >> i just want to find, uh, 11,780

. >> john heilemann needs to trademark the confession or projection line because it really is so truee said bill barr was a coward. no, bill barr did everything he could do to defend donald trump, until donald trump told him a couple weeks before the election, "i need you to arrest my opponent and his family and throw them in jail so i can win the presidential election." i

we appreciate it. >>> john heilemann, my gosh.o ohio, what happened in the 2022 election. how many americans said that abortion was the top issue of mind when they went and voted, suddenly you look back to issues like, you know, prop 13 in california and 78, which many people believe ushered in the reagan revolution, you look at 9/11 and the politics post-9/11, i would put the overturning of roe v. wade politically in these camps. we're really seeing it. here's a state that donald trump won by over 8 percentage points, yet there was a rout in the other direction once again against anti-choice forces. >> right. look, joe, it's now just a little over a year ago that we saw what i think will be, when history is written of this, the most revolutionary -- or the great warning shot across the bow of everybody who wants to -- those who want to restrict abortion rights. in kansas, august 2nd of last year is when that vote took place, a redder state than ohio. people thought, we'll see what happens. now it's an unprecedented moment. we saw

. >> he's a lot better than that tr hilemanh, john heilemann. >> you made me watch more than i've had to see in many years. i no, i accept your apology. lookt your, they have run into something. i think here that they haveo completely underestimated, which is they have devotedmuch o much of their time to tryingid to go after the formereny th president that they have failed to have any kind of agenda that was promised by them in thethe e 2020 election. anything that would peop the demands of of working people across this country, the demands of the middle classth, they'veif i treated the failure of the inflation reduction act g tt as if it was something that was just, you know, a speed bump, something along the roade do to just inevitable reelection, when in reality what they've done is takenen their n their ek the ball and now they're trying to make up for it by saying, fot thisu can't reelec guy because he's so dangerous. he's so dangerous to, you know, democracmocrace coy, the constim and the like. but when people see something like this, i think it makeak ths very real for them. th

let's bring in john heilemann and reverend al sharpton, also professor of history at tulane university to see donald trump continue to do what he is doing on social media, except for the fact that he was told and warned not to by this judge. >> well, it'll continue. nobody will be surprised if it continues. barbara, what should we expect today? should we expect the court to actually hold donald trump accountable? >> reporter: today what the justice department is asking for is actually far more modest than any sort of gag order. all they're asking is before we share all of these witness statements in discovery, we would like an order saying that donald trump cannot disclose that to the public, knowing that could invite threats or harassment or intimidation, and yet, they have dragged their feet. this is a routine order entered in many, many kinds of cases. i think donald trump will file something, and i'm confident the judge will enter this order telling him to stop doing what he's doing, which is intimidating witnesses. the judge is going to have to decide whether to gag him, which wil

and neil atimal and host of "the beat" and national affairs analyst john heilemann. can we expect? >> well, i think we have the federal arraignment and the president of his last one. you have seen how that looks. and donald trump's crowds, the type of things that he threatened didn't materialize on the last one. it should be a fairly orderly process. shouldn't take that long. these are the most serious charges that donald trump has been indicted on. and the only time, now that he has three indictments stacked up, but he's never been indicted for actions in office. that's worse. it's a higher bar. and it speaks to the real seriousness of the charges for him as a federal defendant and someone who could be convicted. after his appeals can be incarcerated or convicted. it speaks to the heaviness, the gravitas of all of that. so, the arraignment should be straightforward. the charges are serious. this is the biggest indictment he faces. >> we can tell what donald trump's defense is going to be. it's no defense at all. two nondefenses. they're talking about the first amend

. >> as john heilemann says about donald trump, it is always confession or projection. >> our next guestles are weighing over the republicans' first presidential debate. now just days away. the piece by senior columnist matt lewis is entitled "showing up to the gop debate would be the ultimate trump flex" and it reads in part this, for normal politicians one indictment would be enough to go into hiding and avoid interrogation by a debate moderator, but, remember, trump is not a normal politician and just as there is precedent for trump to skip a primary debris, there is also precedent for him to exploit a political debate in an effort to move past a damaging scandal by saying outrageous things and steamrolling his opponents. case in point, trump turned out to be incredibly lucky that a presidential debate occurred on october 9th, 2016, just two days after the "access hollywood" story broke. now it's likely that whoever leaked the "access hollywood" video thought they were delivering the coup de gras by virtue of their impeccable timing but had the exact opposite effect. the debate ironic

. >> john heilemann needs to trademark the confession or projection line because it really is so true. everything donald trump ever says is confession or projection. you know, it's so fascinating, he said bill barr was a coward. no, bill barr did everything he could do to defend donald trump, until donald trump told him a couple weeks before the election, "i need you to arrest my opponent and his family and throw them in jail so i can win the presidential election." i mean, it's straight out of a fascist dictatorship, and so bill barr, after, i've got to say, humiliating himself for several years, bill barr decides, this is where i get off. this is enough. >> this is my line. >> i believe in an imperial presidency, but i don't believe in a fascist presidency. that's what donald trump was asking him to do. asking him to steal an election. asking him to arrest his political opponents. asking him to do the sort of things, again, that fascist dictators do. he wouldn't do it. now, trump has turned on him. as far as fani willis goes and jack smith and everything else, again, we can point yo