john blair and john proctor go to john custus on martha's behalf and tell him if he meets her, you will fall in love with her. i would love to see with that meeting was like. whatever she said to this man, he said she was the most amiable young girl and he could not see his son marrying anything better than the young dandridge girl. >> we can see williamsburg as a real home where she owned a house and property. her first husband and children are buried right outside. the closest members of her family are within 20 or 30 miles of williamsburg. she can easily reconnect with them. >> the parish church, in many ways, was martha washington's home church. her great-grandfather was the first minister of the parish church. roland jones. he is buried on the inside. grandparents are both now buried in the church. probably more closely connected to miss martha washington than anybody else, other than george washington, is her first husband and their first two children. this is the final resting place of martha washington's first husband. this stone was ordered from london. although he and both of their first two children, their first son and their first daughter who lie here, were first interred outside the plantation outside of williamsburg, they remained at the church in the early part of the century. this is a tenement. this is one of the buildings that martha washington owned in williamsburg. she actually owned this whole block going back a couple of acres, and which means she owned a huge chunk of one williamsburg was. she stayed here on and off for most of her life. williamsburg was the center of her world. she was here when her husband, daniel custis, was a prominent member of this community and she was here very often when george washington was a member of the house of burgesses, was a political leader in the colony. and, of course, in order to be able to protect and promote her own business interests in the area. host: what about her williamsburg years were important to the woman she became as first lady? patricia: you have to realize she was a teenager when she became the fiance of daniel custis and he was 20 years older, and he was a bachelor because his dad never let him marry. nobody was good enough. not only did she overcome prejudice on the part of the father, but she helped bring him into a real-life with the children and everyone else, but he was so rich. he was so much richer than most people around. she came from a lower gentry family. they were not so rich. she learned how to manage property and to manage money and to take care of things that would serve her really well for the rest of her life. she was smart as far as money went. host: 25 when she became a widow? richard: just one statistic to put this in perspective. mount vernon at its peak was about 8,000 acres. daniel custis, when they were married, and martha was 19 years old, brought 18,000 acres into this marriage, and the video which was wonderful -- if anything, it understated how thoroughly curmudgeonly daniel's father was. his tombstone holds an inscription he wrote which announces he had never been happy except when living apart from his wife. whatever it was that this 18 19-year-old young woman was able to say made an amazing impression. something about -- patricia: about the force of her character. richard: and her personality. host: she became wealthy at age 25. a wealthy, wealthy widow. she was quite a catch. what was it about george washington she saw that attracted her? patricia: it was mostly that he was such a hunk. he was 6'2" at a time when most men were 5'8", 5'9". a wonderful horseman, wonderful athlete, fabulous dancer, very charming. and he really liked women. he loved to talk to women always, his whole life long. he had begun to show the type of leadership he would show more of, but in the estimation of those days he was the lucky one. she was the catch, rather than he. host: a colonel at the time and distinguished in his military career. richard: he would also be a real catch in the sense that -- remember, she had four children by daniel custis, two of whom died young, and two of them survived for now. and, of course, she had all that property. george washington would also fulfill vital roles even as a partner. patricia: she could trust him because he was clearly a person of such integrity. host: on that note so people get a sense of what life was like for women in early america, women had what kind of property rights? patricia: as a widow she was in a fine shape, because her husband did not leave any kind of trustee. she could do what she wanted to. host: is that common? patricia: fairly common. it was much more common to leave mail trustees he just did not . he just did not get around to writing his will in time. once they got married it meant that they were covered women and all of their financial and any other kind of dealings were carried out by their husbands. patricia: -- richard: she had a portion of the custis estate which she had an 85 slaves. the rest had to be managed for her children. host: our twitter community is enjoying you calling george washington a hunk. how accurate is this portrayal of martha washington? patricia: very accurate. people criticized it and said, why do you have to show her young? we all start young. you are not born at 65 years old. it was important to show what she looked like as a beautiful young woman, so we took a picture from mount vernon to a forensic anthropology lab and they did an age regression to show what she actually looked like at 25. i wanted to say, what did george see when the door was open and he walked into the drawing room? what kind of woman did he set eyes on? it was not the gilbert stuart old lady. it was a beautiful young woman. host: about the children, martha washington had four. by the time she met george there were two living children. what was his attitude toward these children? did he take them on as his own? richard: he really did. later on he famously adopted the grandchildren. washington loved children. i think washington was rather sensitive to the fact that he had no children of his own, and that would be a subject of pure speculation, which hasn't prevented historians from speculating. the fact is he treated her children very much as if they were his own. by one estimate, she brought 20,000 pounds to their marriage, and he spent a good deal of that immediately sending away for orders for toys, for wax dolls for patsy, the daughter, and he spent quality time with them and, of course, lost both of them. it was a shattering experience. patsy, who died of epilepsy, one day at dinner in the dining room, and jackie, who had not participated in the revolution until the very end and joined his stepfather's staff, came down with most people think typhus or some type of fever and died a few days later. host: this is very common in the period. the average life expectancy would have been 50's or 60's. patricia: except you need to think of the fact that a large part of those in the mortality figures are young children who died before they're 5 or 6. the death rate among young children or women giving birth who died in childbirth. those figures are skewed. if you lived beyond 6 and if you survived childbirth, the chances of you living into your 70's were fine. richard: washington men lived beyond the 50's. he had a sense that he was living on borrowed time at 57. that is why he was reluctant to take the presidency. host: time for some questions from around the country. the first one is jennifer in south dakota. what's your question? caller: i was wondering what martha's relationship was to general washington's staff, people like alexander hamilton and maybe some of the younger politicians like monroe and maybe even madison, especially considering that she did lose her children. patricia: well, that's a great question, because from the time she first gave birth at 18, 19 she was a really wonderful mother. she doted on the children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews. during the war with the young officers, she was more or less like a house mother at a fraternity. she looked after these young men and she saw that they ate enough and that they had dry socks. they did all the important things and concerned herself with them in that way. and forever afterward the young men of those days remembered her as their mother, as their foster mother. richard: she also had a sense of humor. alexander hamilton loved the ladies, and they returned his interest. at one point in the war -- this is before hamilton married betsy schuyler -- martha had an amorous tomcat. that she named hamilton in tribute to the future secretary of the treasury. host: i'm going to move on to another question from tom, of all things, from bethesda, maryland. caller: there was a special relationship between george washington and the marquis de lafayette. how did martha get along with him? patricia: he was another of the young men that she became a mother to. when he came, although the richest man in france, he was one of the most unhappy. he was escaping persecution by his in-laws and by the court and he came as a young man. he was 18 years old when she met him, and she thought of him as another son. she treated him that way. he loved it. he saw a part of that as what america was like, where people could be made over and he could be made over. richard: he was one of the better observers who gives us a window on the relationship between the washingtons. he writes a letter. people ask why did martha spend every winter of the revolution with washington and lafayette said it was simple. she loved her husband fondly. her husband madly. host: you are on. caller: i read in washington a few months ago, and at that time he mentioned that the judge woman left because martha told her she was going to pass her on down to her daughter and that she trusted and liked martha but didn't want to work for the daughter. patricia: that's actually her granddaughter. the daughter was many years dead by then. martha had three granddaughters, and the oldest one was a fairly bad tempered and very capricious, and i do not think anyone would have wanted to work for her, much less belong to her. and certainly when she was told that eliza had requested her and that she was going to -- when they went home that she would be going to live with eliza when she got married, she decided enough was enough and took off. host: the montpelier folks are going to be yelling at me. shame on me. monticello was thomas jefferson's home, so we have to correct that. richard: friends of hers who basically smuggled her to portsmouth, new hampshire, and mrs. washington wanted to -- wanted her back and wanted the president to advertise for her return. it put washington in a very awkward situation. host: in michigan, what is your question? caller: i have a public historian. i wondered what you thought about how historic sites deal with first ladies, in particular, martha washington. do you think she is well represented? are there things we can do to talk about what she did? and how she helped her husband? patricia: i certainly think in philadelphia it would be good to see even more done about martha washington as the first lady but at mount vernon they have done an incredible job. mount vernon is the leader among these historical houses. they have an actress who portrays martha washington, and they really make clear how important she was, that she was not just a hostess. host: next up is surely in tucson. hi, shirley, you're on. caller: i'd like to ask a question about the custis-lee house in arlington. host: have you been to visit it? caller: oh, yes, several times. i grew up in the washington area, and i was just there, and i saw it was being renovated and i was curious. i don't really remember why it was in the custis family. host: thanks very much. patricia: well, because martha's grandson, washington custis, who was adopted along with his sister, nelly, by the washingtons and lived with them throughout their lives, when he -- after the washingtons died and he was on his own, he decided to build a beautiful mansion, which he did, and it was arlington. so this was the custis mansion. it in fact never belonged to robert lee. robert married mary custis, his daughter, and cared for it and lived there when he wasn't out on the frontier someplace building buildings and all. but it passed from washington custis to his daughter, mary, to the lees' son. lee was more of the caretaker, but he was the most famous of them all, so his name is included. richard: if you want to humanize the washingtons, it's a wonderful universal story about how george and martha agreed to disagree about george washington parke custis, known as young wash or tub, who was, i think most people agree, spoiled royally by his grandmother. he was in and out of school, and there were these wonderful letters in which washington was pouring out the benefit of his wife's experience about how he would work all day long, it's amazing how much you could get done, etc., etc., etc. totally wasted on tub, who would go on to become famous for his connection to george washington. patricia: when the couple married, george washington was in the process of building mount vernon. well, mount vernon existed as a four-room farmhouse, but it was in the process of adding a second story. so then it was an eight-room house with an attic area at the top. host: doing that to bring his new wife there or -- patricia: he paid for it himself. it was partly his pride he did not want to be marrying a rich woman and using her money to make his house. i think it was to show that he too, had a lot to offer. host: both of you have spent hundreds of hours at mount vernon. is it fair to call it the centerpiece of the washington's existence? richard: absolutely. patricia: definitely, of course. richard: yeah, it was the north star, the place they always wanted to return to, the place they were happiest. and yet, it's remarkable -- not to jump ahead, but after the president died, maybe the greatest sacrifice of all that martha was asked to make, and yet the last ultimate she was willing to have his remains removed from mount vernon and moved to the new capitol building in washington, d.c. fortunately that never happened. bureaucracy took over. patricia: shows how bad politics sometimes works out well. they got to arguing so they did not take him away. host: let's show you some of the views of mount vernon when we visited. >> it's clear that after martha arrives at mount vernon in april of 1759, there's a lot of management that she has to do. when she marries george washington she brings with her 12 house slaves, and that is really almost an unimaginable luxury. these are slaves who, for the most part, are not field labor or not producing crops, which is where your income is coming from. they are doing things like cooking, cleaning the house, doing the laundry, sewing. this is not productive labor, in the sense that it's not producing income. so she brings those slaves with her. she brings financial resources to the marriage as well as managerial skills. makes mount vernon a successful operation and makes it possible for washington to be away for eight years fighting a war. so the fact that washington has this support system that enabled him to volunteer his time and talents to run the revolution is clearly critical. there is a farm manager who during most of the revolution is a distant cousin of george washington. later the farm manager is george augustin washington, who is washington's nephew. and he ends up marrying fannie bassett, who is martha washington's niece. so that tells you something about the closeness of some of the family relationships. it is clear while they are at mount vernon with martha washington, she was a take charge woman. in terms of her interaction with the slaves, she's interacting with the cooks in the kitchen, the maids who are serving in the house. there are also slave women who are spinning on a continual basis to produce yarn. she is supervising what the gardeners are doing. martha was a great lover of gardens and having cut flowers. she loved having a kitchen garden that she could go out and bring in vegetables for what they're going to be able to serve at mount vernon. she's the one who's really planning the menus. there are just a lot of levels that she is working with. it's a big operation. really the center of her whole life. host: if you visit mount vernon today and with years of documentary research, how close is it to re-creating the life that george and martha washington experienced? patricia: nothing today could re-create the life at that time, because for one thing, they would have to take all the motorized vehicles away. they would have to have haystacks, manure piles, outdoor toilets. there was so much about the life that was so much more primitive than it is. but as close as you can today, it's very good. as i said, it's the leader in the historical houses. host: george washington's crops were white and -- were what, what kind of a businessman was he? richard: that is an aspect of his life that is least understood. people who think of him as a complex conservative. they should think of him more in agriculture. he had a great passion for it. he was a real experimental farmer. he realized this was not fertile soil to begin with. it was being exploited by tobacco. tobacco really should be a crop of the past. he experimented with over 60 different crops to see what would work best. a very quick point i wanted to make was the apprenticeship that running mount vernon offered, if there was an ad for first lady in 1789, martha washington's prior experience really qualified her uniquely. and one of the things that she did -- if you go to mount vernon today, you'll notice there are two, in effect, wings, that were added during the revolution, which, by the way, she oversaw the construction. there's the dining room, which is a very public space, and then there's a very private wing that contains their bedroom and his study. one of the jobs she had -- they had 600 people a year, strangers, who showed up, just because they wanted to see the most famous man on earth. they were all welcome. they were all greeted. most of them were fed, given a bed overnight. but even washington, he'd disappear in the evening, go to his study, leaving martha to converse with the visitors. host: their bedroom was one of the other videos we chose. let's watch that now. patricia: ok. >> the room that we refer to and show off in the mansion at the washingtons bed chamber is a room that was part of the south wing of the mansion here at mount vernon that was started in 1775, right before george washington left to participate in the continental congress, and then the revolutionary war. george washington does always refer to it as mrs. washington's chamber. and it's clear that it was kind of the center -- her nerve center for mount vernon. so the sort of daily routine was that when mrs. washington got up she typically spent time in , that chamber doing her hour of spiritual meditation. perhaps later in the day writing letters, talking with her cooks to plan menus for the day, giving assignments for what was to be done that day. when her grandchildren were young, we know she also used that room for teaching them, reading them stories, sewing in the afternoons. so you can really imagine how wonderful it would have been in that room. one the most notable pieces is the bed that is in that bed chamber. that is the bed on which george washington died. but we also know from martha washington's will that she had a personal role in acquiring that bed, which is a bit larger than the typical dimensions for an 18th century bed. so it seems perhaps that she's getting kind of a custom-made bed for her quite tall husband. another piece in the room that has a very close connection with martha washington is her desk. although very little of the correspondence between george and martha washington has survived, because martha washington destroyed their private correspondence. it was in that desk that two of their letters were found that had slipped behind one of the drawers. that is very special to us as kind of the preserver of that little bit of very personal correspondence. it's not just a place where she slept. i can just picture her really sitting in her easy chair by the fire with her grandchildren around, and so we can really imagine how comfortable it must have been for martha washington. host: george and martha washington's bedroom at mount vernon. one of the things that's mentioned is her morning meditations, which seemed to be a sacred time for her throughout her life. what do we know of what she did during that time? patricia: she was an episcopalian. she was a member of the church of england and after the revolution she became a member of the american episcopal church. she had several bibles. she read the bible and also the book of common prayer. she spent a lot of time also reading other books about the episcopal point of view and she was a very, very deeply religious, but not judgmental woman. host: what about that video is important to tell people more of their room together and the life that they had? richard: well, the fact that she burned all their correspondence in some ways is a metaphor. that's where they could be themselves. that's where they could say to each other what they didn't say anywhere else. and i think one reason why she burned those letters is because that was the unvarnished george washington. it wasn't simply the uniquely intimate relationship that existed between them. she was the only person on earth to whom washington could confess his doubts, his fears, his opinions of his colleagues. host: but this is the interesting thing about that, that they both had a sense that they were creating an image larger than his lifetime. that they didn't want to be -- patricia: she was very careful of his papers as was he. when they seemed they might be in danger, the trunk was removed. building his image, but a truthful image. having a letters showing him as a military man and a riggelman where important --and a rega man. llady did not go about letting their husbands love letters be read. she had had not enough privacy in her life. the letters were fabulous, they were both from him to her in 1775 in philadelphia when he has just excepted command of the continental army we doesn't exist yet. the nation doesn't exist yet, it is 1775. he is writing and saying, my dear, i had to accept this as my honor required it. please, don't be angry with me. he goes on and on about why it is important and why she needs to support him and before he goes off to be the leader of the war, he makes time to go out and buy some of the nicest linens and towns or she can make some nice dresses out of it. richard: i don't think anyone reading those letters would subscribe to the still widely held view that their relationship was in some ways a business like one. patricia: they were young at this point at all. host: next up is dale in very bill virginia. --berryville, virginia. caller: my name is gail and i have a couple of questions. i am reading a book called "mount vernon love story" by mary higgins clark and she says that no one ever called martha washington martha. she was always called patsy. lady bird johnson was never called claudia. i was just wondering, i just heard you mention that in his letters to when he referred to her in his letters that was just mentioned on television, that he did call her patsy. i also wanted to mention that in this story i am reading about martha and george washington that mount vernon was originally the home of his hat -- of his half-brother, george washington's half-brother, and that he lived in a smaller farm i wonder if you are going to talk about anything about a surveyor or if this is really about the years with martha as an adult? >> this is martha washington's time in the sun. but how about the nickname patsy? >> patsy, pat or patty were the nicknames for martha in those days, just as peg or peggy is the nickname for margaret. nobody was named which back then. the only patsy before martha. that was simply the common name. >> the smaller firm she was referencing? >> smaller because it was 500 acres at that point. he then added a second story. >> share is watching us in arlington, texas. caller: thank you for taking my call. i have a question. i'm wondering if you can clarify the relationship george had which apparently did not end until after the revolutionary war. what she aware of that relationship, and how did she honestly deal with that, or was that something that was just not discussed? >> mr. smith, want to start? [indiscernible] [laughter] >> you disagree. >> here is a classic example of where unfortunately, mrs. washington did her cause no good by burning all of those letters. in the late 1950's, two letters were discovered. the reigning washington biographer made a great deal out of, some would say, perhaps exaggerated their significance. sally fairfax was the wife of george william fairfax, who was a neighbor and close friend. some people describe him as washington's best friend. what i think clearly, there was -- i would use the word infatuation. sally was a slightly older, very sophisticated to someone like george, who wanted as a young man very much to belong who wanted to be part of the colonial aristocracy, who wanted to advance in the british military. someone like sally, who was then even unattainable -- nevertheless held a special allure. exactly what the nature of that relationship was is still being debated. talk about george washington's integrity. i think it was something even then, i don't think the relationship went beyond a lovesick young man, but -- >> then we won't degree that this, no doubt, when those two letter surfaced, that you can't read them other way then he was a lovesick puppy. they hardly makes sense when you read them sentence by sentence and try to punctuate them. he sort of going crazy because she has said something mean to him about not writing to her, and he has gone nuts. you see how much he cares about her and how infatuated he is. i don't think it went any further than that kind of infatuation, because he did care too much about his friends. once he met martha and once they started to settle in, i think she had to have known. she was a smart woman when he started talking about the elegant neighbors that belfour she had to have picked up a special town, but they became actually best friends. those couples visited all the time, sally fairfax and her husband were there at her funeral. they were very close right -- close. in 1773, the fairfax is go back to england, never to return. this negative in relationship beyond friendship. susan: hi, mary. caller: an ancestor of martha washington, her younger brother bartholomew was the great great great uncle of mine. i was also born in new can county, virginia. i had a couple questions pertaining to martha's younger life. i always heard growing up that she had met george washington at the plantation property next door to the white house, and that he had been the guest of the chamberlains there for dinner, and not knowing martha was invited also, and that was where they met. the other question i have is, i understood that she attended somewhat st. peter's episcopal church in the county, which was a short distance from the white house. susan: when we reference the white house, it's not the white house we know. patricia: the white house is the plantation on the river where daniel custis is the lord and master there. st. peter's was their church. there are different stories about how they met. some people have said she and george had known each other for a long time. i don't think there's really much believe in that because when you do the numbers of when he was out in the field fighting and when she could have been in williamsburg, the times they had met, it did not amount to very much. the whole chamberlains story comes from custis, who likes to write about everything as a grand old-fashioned romance, and the chamberlains insult -- th emselves believed it. there is evidence for those who do. susan: time to move onto the revolutionary war. george washington pressed into service as a leader of the continental army. martha washington leaves non-vernon to spend time with him. how frequently what she on the battlefield with him? patricia: she goes every winter to him to join him in the camps and make a home for all the young officers on his staff and to encourage other officers to bring their wives and daughters to come and visit and make it a social time. of the actual eight years of the revolution, she spends overall five years at the front. susan: we have a video from one of those encampments, valley forge. let's watch that. [video clip] >> when martha washington came to valley forge on the fifth of february 1778, she arrives here according to general nathanael greene, in the evening. it takes her 10 days to travel here to valley forge from mount vernon. we know what the weather was like when she was traveling which was not always so pleasant. it started out snowing and she left from the mount vernon area and then the winds picked up and then it started to rain. it became very muddy. when she finally arrived here on february the fifth, that was actually quite pleasant and the weather was 35. but for a lot of the time, she was traveling through mud. in her carriage, with her slaves and servants with her. this was a difficult journey. it's interesting to look at the primary documentation, the letters and journals and diaries of the time, to see what martha did do at valley forge. it's a little surprising, and it puts a different complexion on the entire valley forge and can't met. i think number one they had a very nice relationship. if she was going to see him, she would have to come to him. once she comes to him at valley forge, she probably takes over the housekeeping duties, which is what she was used to at mount vernon. we also know that she entertained. we know that elizabeth drinker came to valley forge. she came with several of her friends. we know that mrs. washington entertained and talk to visitors when they came to valley forge when general washington was not able to do that. this is when it starts to get interesting. she served elegant dinners at valley forge. most people would never put the word elegant together with the word valley forge. this is probably were martha washington dined for a while and till the log hut built for dining, which she said made our dishes much more tolerable than they were at first, was built right back near the kitchen. you can imagine martha washington here with some of the officers, general washington perhaps some of the people from the area who might have been passing through eating dinner here, which was served in the afternoon, maybe 2:00 or 3:00. the food, by the way that they ate here was really, really different from what the soldiers were eating. we know, for example, that there were 2000 eggs brought into valley forge that they ate in the encampment period. six-month period for the valley forge encampment. we know they brought in 750 pounds of butter and at least 1600 pounds of veal were brought into camp. these are some of the things that martha washington would be eating here as she was dining with people. conversation's kind of interesting to think about. what would martha washington and the other people have been talking about? we don't know, of course. but when elizabeth drinker came from philadelphia, very likely the conversation at that point would have been what were the conditions like in philadelphia. the british were in philadelphia. general washington would be very interested to think about what the conditions were at that time. martha would have been part of that conversation, listening to what was happening, talking to ladies from philadelphia. we know, too, that martha washington went to several worship services here at camp. we know that on may 6, there's a wonderful celebration, the celebration of the french alliance. martha washington is there and receive assenter of a large tent and thousands of people, officer, the wives go through. and general dekalb says thousands of them are entertained and served refreshments with martha and general george washington. those are some of the things that martha is doing here at valley forge. susan: back talking about martha washington with pat brady and richard norton smith. i have a tweet here from jennifer sherman who writes, "amazing how much time martha washington spent with her husband on the front lines.” on the front lines what i wanted to start with. it sounds genteel, the existence we were hearing about. but 2500 soldiers died in that encampment in that winter. richard: it wasn't viewed as genteel by her contemporaries. one of the things that fostered a bond between mrs. washington and what would be the american people was the perception that she sacrificed every bit as much as her husband in the war. this is another part of her training in a sense for being first lady. he was in effect for eight years an executive. the closest thing that the country had. she was a first lady of sorts. and very touching story. they -- they had one room on the second floor of valley forge. then they had an hour every morning that was sacred. one hour when they weren't to be disturbed. wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall for those conversations because washington unloaded a lot. patricia: he had a lot -- he had so many worries. would they possibly win. but what she did, it wasn't just entertaining the americans, she was entertaining officers from france, from britain, from -- not britain, from germany. and she was able to charm them. one particular french officer said it was so wonderful to be there with her drinking tea, singing, and just chatting. and at the end of the evening, one would go home feeling better. can you imagine feeling better at valley forge? she had charm beyond belief. >> she had an official role acting as an assistant to his private secretary, transcribing documents. patricia: that didn't happen often. it was rare, really. susan: gave her a glimpse of what his former job might have been like. patricia: that's true, that's true. susan: what else from the long years were important for her development as first lady. patricia: one thing that's really important, it sounds weird, is the change in her sewing habits. all american women sewed. well-to-do women sewed embroidery and tapestry and fancy work. when she was there and the local ladies came to call, she was not doing fancy work. she had the knitting needles out. and she was -- she was knitting socks for the soldiers. these were infantry men. they marched and wore holes in their socks. she must have knitted thousands of socks as well as others and raised the money to make linen shirts as well as uniform shirts for them. physically in terms of her work and emotionally in terms of the leadership helped the troops herself. richard: there was a wonderful group of women who knew they were going to be calling on the general's lady and expecting this very grand figure. and to their astonishment, they found her knitting and wearing a speckled apron. so she -- she clearly was not someone to stand on her position or her title. susan: back to phone calls. elizabeth is in washington dc. hi, elizabeth. caller: thank you so much for being here. this is great. the panel is fantastic. my question is about martha washington's grandchildren. you mentioned nellie and washy and, of course, eliza. could you talk about martha custis peter. the two letters in the desk mentioned earlier were found by that grand daughter, or at least that's the story. but could you talk a little bit about martha custis peter and her relationship with her grandmother. patricia: there were four children -- there were eliza martha known as patty. then nellie, then wash. when the was adopted two of the grandchildren, they took the two youngest, nellie and wash. and the elder girls lived with their mother and stepfather and eventually lots of half brothers and sisters. so the two elder girls spent a lot of time with the washingtons, were very friendly with them. but they weren't very loving with them. but they were not the same as the adopted children. patty got married very young apparently for love. and her husband, thomas peter was a well-to-do man in georgetown, they built a beautiful house, an incredibly gorgeous place. in a sale after martha's death, she bought this desk and when she took it home, she found those wonderful letters. susan: martha johnson, we said this a few times, she tweets martha washington outlived her four children. pretty unthinkable for people today, not so uncommon for people of this history. edward, you're on the air, welcome. caller: fascinating program. i'm originally from new york in newberg where george the general stayed at the has brooke house the famous room with seven doors and one window. i was wondering if martha was there with him and also if she -- the entombment there with the lasting encampment when they offered him the kingship. could you expound on that, please? thank you. patricia: she was at newberg. she spent a lot of time at newberg because the war had run down. it was a case of waiting for a all of the peace treaties to be ratified and all. as to the latter part, was she? i don't think she was. richard: that defining moment in american history, i don't think she was there for that. susan: we have 12 minutes left in this. we said when when he started 90 minutes is going to go by quickly. it is. we started out about the white house years but the last segment is on life after the presidency when the washingtons returned to mt. vernon. was this also precedent setting. what other presidencies would be like. richard: he became the first president and then also the first ex-president. she shared in that. susan: did they think about any of that? richard: no, they were just glad to be at home. susan: was there any consideration of a third term? richard: no. indeed, washington had wanted very much to leave after the first term. allowed himself to be persuaded against his instincts that it was his patriotic duty. martha wasn't happy. she wasn't particularly happy he took the first term. she recognized it was unavoidable and her life had been caught up in that of her country. i think -- not sure she would have divorced him if there had been a third term, but a third term was not in the cards for either one of their standpoint. susan: the mid '60s in this time period was elderly. patricia: he twice had ailments that almost killed him during the time he was president and she was terrified that the presidency would literally kill him. you think of every president you know and you look at the pictures of when they start and eight years later, they're more than eight years older for sure. it's a very aging kind of a job. susan: we look at the political battles we face today over immigration and the size of the federal debt, what were the intensity of the political battles of this time frame? richard: remember, washington's success as president depended on his persuading everyone that he was not a political partisan. he did not call it a federalist government. he called it a national government. he went out of his way to include all of the sections of the country. hamilton and jefferson had their cockfight in the cabinet much to his displeasure. he kept those people around him long after they wanted him to leave. he made that sacrifice. he was willing to see himself pillarry in the press as dupe of king george and betrayed the revolution. and martha had to suffer all of this in effect vicariously. it's always been harder and in some ways for a first lady or a presidential child to put up with the criticism than for the president who accepted it as part of the job. susan: you told us she was not apolitical. she had to have been involved. patricia: she did. she hated thomas jefferson. once he started the newspaper campaigns against washington. the reason he brought him in was to defeat hamilton. he said, a shame how much the president suffers from these sorts of attacks. but it's necessary. she never forgave him, never. he didn't realize she was smart enough to see what he was doing. but she thought he was horrible and the fact that he was elected president was shocking. richard: he made the mistake of underestimating martha washington. martha grew closer politically and personally to the adams. she was glad that it was johnms and not thomas jefferson who won the presidency to succeed her husband. susan: we'll delve into the life of abigail adams. this helps to set the stage for that. how many years post presidency did they live at mt. vernon? patricia: he lived two years and she lived beyond that. susan: what would that have been like? patricia: it's a great time. the house, again was sort of broken down and things in the fields weren't done the way he wanted them to be, experimenting with the crops and dealing with the gristmill and all of the things he pioneered with, she had the housekeeping. mt. vernon becomes the symbol of the nation after they retire. there is no white house yet. you know, that's not built. washington, d.c. is building up, but it doesn't really exist. so when it doesn't exist is a large place but when foreigners and when important visitors come, who do they want to see. there's no building worth seeing in d.c. they want to see mt. vernon and washington. after washington dies, they
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