without a tent and he said the greatest day i ever spent in my life freezing in a snowstorm with john muir. they would try to outnaturalist each other. nobody new birds like t.r. muir was a botanist so he would talk about the plants. roosevelt was outplaying them on birds. they had a friendly competition. roosevelt thought muir was a great man. muir thought that in extreme cases of hunger you should shoot an animal. roosevelt thought that hunters the great could be k-conservationition. muir says when are you going to give up that boyish hunting thing of yourselves. t.r. said i know i need to, i should. of course, he didn't. he went on to africa as ex president and brazil collecting for science but also getting specimens and it gets back to your taxidermy question, before d.n.a., before banning of animals and radar, they would study birds was by as many specimens. he couldn't have one blue bird and know anything definitively about them. you had to have a wide selection of them to study in the laboratory. roosevelt as many collected for the biological survey for what is today's fish and wild

in california there was john muir. but john burroughs said you can learn a lot about nature in a blade of grass. i've worked with the john burroughs foundation in new york to make sure his alms get preserved. the library of america, john burroughs is one of the top 20 writers we have ever had. i want to preserve his poems. the finest naturalist writer in the united states. teddy roosevelt loved him. as president he had john burroughs come to yellowstone. they went hiking and camping together. he brought john burroughs on a trip out west. when roosevelt would spent time outside charlottesville, the only guess he would have with his family there was john burroughs at his country home. they would go birdwatching. they wrote about what they were seeing. there's no higher complement to the roosevelt other than john burroughs thought roosevelt's writings were more about preservation and hunting. >> you said john burroughs loved walt whitman. then you said there's no evidence that they had always sexual relationship. >> walt w

and john muir in california was the nature. and burrows, said in a blade of grass you can learn a lot about nature. and a brilliant writer, i have been working with the burrows foundation to be sure his writings get perserved. he belongs in the top tier, one the top 20 writers we have ever had. in my opinion one of the finest natural writers. t.r. loved him and he took him hiking and camping. and took him on that trip out to the west. and when he had pine knot, only for the wife and kids. and the only guest was john burrows. and would go bird watching. and there is no higher compliment to burrows from theodore roosevelt. >> you had a person expression and saying that he loved walt whitman. and didn't have a relationship, why did you write that? >> whitman was gay. and when burrows was a young man and had a historical love look, and they had love notes. he became the great student of whitman, and their relationship was platonic. and he became, burrows, almost a son to walt whitman. >> ok, we are in the conservation center for tr

donald worster, who wrote the recent biography on john muir, wrote the reclamation project. roosevelt made a great mistake in the dams, trying to bring electricity to west. it's controversial. it's a big part of my book. donald worster is our national expert on the aired west. i would sent him my questions. everybody i sent a chapter to found something wrong. sometimes four or five -- usually in this case, i didn't get anything big wrong. it's a word change. i say, you know, the winds blew from the southeast and it can't be the southeast. it's the northeast. that microthing. and particularly, i'm a bird lover and amateur. i would send it to auto bonn society to make sure i'm not misidentifying a bird species. they're very particular people. >> you have your hands on first edition books written by theodore roosevelt. how much do you trust those? and did he write them himself? >> oh, he wrote like -- one of the things people ask me, how do you write so much? you did this and you're teaching. i'm nothing compared to theodore roosevelt. this guy was doing five times more while h