and i want to pick up with you professional john stremlau. taught as gwen just said in south africa for a number of years after nelson mandela was released. what did you see of the man? what did he mean to his country? >> el with, he -- well he means. i think the challenge is to live up to the example as he set, as president obama indicated. what was great about mandela was his respect for the rule of law. think about it for just a moment. 27 years in jail on an ill legitimate situation, his advisor said no no no you can't do it, you can't appear on this case of rugby and discrimination, a libel set of some sort, it was that stubborn sense of fairness which kept the process on track. and we americans owe him and the country of south africa a great debt. because nothing would have torn this country apart in the 1970s or perhaps in the '80s but a race war in south africa. so all i want to do is celebrate this wonderful, wonderful man. >> i actually want to pick up ou had been appointed by an african american president, you had seen the current