there is a great deal of dissent about whether the stock market is actually -- charlie: john vogel, that is what you do to sell books. the real point, it does not make a difference to an investor who is in an index fund for a lifetime. michael: this is interesting. vanguard is the one big investor who is said, don't mess with the current system. charlie: they are reasonably low cost index fund. michael: they are great. this is not taking anything away from vanguard. the costs that are imposed by high-frequency traders, the tax falls on active investors. big mutual funds. retail investors, too. anybody trading a lot. the index funds are less active in the market. it gives them a relative advantage to have their competition being tapped. there is a reason he would be less concerned about it. there is also a feeling that whatever the problems are, don't fix it at the regulatory level because you just create more problems. they don't trust anybody to fix it. they are cynical. i have interviewed people who run some of the biggest institutional money managers in the world. hundreds of billions

he has won the war and john c vogel will celebrate his birthday may 8 and the giant of vanguard enjoysl dollar is fleeing to index funds. but robert dietrich tells us it is the gospel according to jack and his disciples had some nuances. mr. assets, mr. lola -- lull. this is a fabulous article. it takes beyond the jack to these new people. let's start with the nuance of jeff vogel by index funds to something like smart beta. what is smart beta? guest: if you ask jackie will wave his arms and say it is baloney. don't say smart beta in this office. there is like a 10 year history in which the early versions were called fundamental indexing and they were trying to take what jack bogle has built at 10 guard and move it in a different direction. tom: jeff rosenberg with blackrock that does both and we can say that but do you see a new pass at management. do you agree with dr. lowell at m.i.t. that there can be something other than this dumb passive investing? rosenberg: of course and we are certainly a big part of both sides and in between you have this concept of smart data tries to bring