in other words, how do you feel about what happened to jonah lehrer? >> not good at all.t is the job that one has to do in this situation. you get all of this material and you say,his is quite a scoop, isn't it? this is a rather well-known journalist. when you're piecing it together and you realize the sort of long-term ramifications of what this is going to -- the ramifications and the consequences this will have for jonah lehrer, that's hugely uncomfortable. >> what i'm hearing is that he lied to you repeatedly. >> repeatedly. >> yet you kind of feel sorry for him. >> most certainly. yeah. yeah. >> why? >> how -- he did this to himself. and there is -- that i think is a separate issue. it's -- there is no doubt in my mind that he deserved i think a heavy amount of punishment, high degree of punishment. and there's no doubt that he brought this upon himself. and had this been -- you know, it's the watergate thing. sort of the cliche about watergate thing. the cover-up in some ways was worse than the crime. this was all his own doing. that said, you would have to have sor