you talked about joseph campbell. i am a little surprised that you did not find him because i think -- i think that campbell, his great contribution having setting the literature and relations of the world was to translate religion into poetry, to help the see that the literal truth of the scripture is not nearly as important and can be very misleading to the poetry of the experience. and he said to me, if you want to change the world contains a metaphor. tains the poetry. to me that the essentially is how i see religion today. the troops study reveals poetic rather than literal. >> we were not brought up with metaphor, brother. [laughter] you and i both had scorching experiences when we were young, and you know it. we looked into a yawning chasm at our feet of hellfire, and we withdrew from it. we felt -- and we felt the love of the lord surrounding us. if joseph campbell had told the story of abraham and isaac, i would have understood that. if he told the story of joan and the whale would have been up there with that