joining us now, joyce vance, former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama and professor of university of alabama law school and also back with us, ron klain. and, joyce, one of the things about all of the reporting in this book involving steve bannon and others, i think one of the thing this is's contested in the coming weeks, is how much of it is on tape, how much of it is clearly reliable reporting because in these kinds of situations if it's not on tape i would imagine everyone in the trump side of the world will just claim they didn't say the things that are attributed to them. >> i think that's absolutely true, lawrence. and the book starts with the very interesting disclaimer where the author says that he's not really sure how much of what's being told in the book is credible. in some cases there were conflicting opinions and other cases he says that he was able to reach what he thought was more reliable version of events so it's important to remember that although this is, you know, journalism and this is

i have joyce vance with me.er story breaking tonight, transcripts have now been released from a period of time when devin nunes' controversial leader of the of house intel committee, was discussing this vote and releasing this information that they want to do in the secret memo. and joyce, the news here is that he was confronted about whether he coordinated with trump, and he would not deny it. >> yeah, and that could end up being incredibly damaging to him in the long run. because although he would have immunity for his actions on the floor of the house and his dealings with his colleagues, if this were ultimately deemed to be part of the pattern of obstruction that we seem to be seeing around the russia investigation, then by cooperating with the white house, which it looks like happened here, he could be exposing himself to liability, certainly i think he'll have an invitation to visit with bob mueller's team. >> even though -- i mean, i'm surprised to hear you say that because the speech and debate clause in

attorney joyce vance who spent 25 years as a prosecutor and sol weissenberg. he conducted grand jury questioning of president bill clinton. sol, if you're robert mueller, and he clearly, according to this "new york times" report, has this information about don mcgahn's attempts to dissuade the attorney general from recusing, does this constitute obstruction of justice in your view? and what does robert mueller do next with this information? >> in my view, in and of itself it absolutely does not constitute obstruction of justice. but keep in mind, as i've said many times, i can guarantee you that 70% of what robert mueller is looking at, we don't know anything about. so we don't know the evidence that robert mueller has. this can be part of a piece, as other people have pointed out, a mosaic of various events that robert mueller is looking at. but in and of itself, no, it is not obstruction of justice. >> joyce vance, do you agree with that assessment? where do you see this? >> i think sol is right about that. there is really a common sense understanding of obs

joyce vance, what do you make of this, we've been through nixon, we've been through cases where they've at the white house to say we can't talk almost like a husband can't testify against his spouse or something like that. how hard is that principle of executive privilege here? >> you know, executive privilege is one of those amorphous legal topics not fully fleshed out. it develops over time in the case law. so the question, does it protect these kinds of testimonial experiences that the white house is trying to apparently shut down? the most interesting aspect of this problem is that so far, the white house has gotten away without having the president actually invoke the privilege. and so none of these witnesses can --s are obligated to avoid answering the questions. bannon could have gone ahead and testified because the white house had not invoked it. we won't see a real test of the privilege until it's invoked until it comes before a tribunal. one thing i do think is correct is he'll have a lot less success in front of bob mueller than he'll have had on the hill. >> tough question n

as joyce vance's analysis points out, he was actually doing something very far from that. you. joyce one more question for you. stick with me after the break. >>> coming up, does steve bannon know a lot more than he said in the michael wolff book. a seafood with new tasting plate s small plates, with big flavor- like yucatan shrimp in chili-lime butter and caramelized pineapple. and if you like hot, buttery maine lobster, check out this petite red lobster roll. for new entrees, explore globally-inspired dishes like spicy dragon shrimp. and now, when you order any two new or classic entrees, you get a free tasting plate. so get your coupon at redlobster.com and join us today! so get your coupon at ethat's the height ofs mount everest. because each day she chooses to take the stairs. at work, at home... even on the escalator. that can be hard on her lower body, so now she does it with dr. scholl's orthotics. clinically proven to relieve and prevent foot, knee or lower back pain, by reducing the shock and stress that travel up her body with every step she takes. so keep on cl

we are now joined by joyce vance, former u.s. torney and evan mcmullen who pulled the short string and ended up in the segment. joyce, let me start with you, because i -- this story has been out there a few days. i hadn't covered it. it seemed a little icky. i'm not trying to be a prude here. someone said the reason this is so interesting -- two reasons, and i think i have "the wall street journal" speaking to one of them. the climate in which the $130,000 alleged payment was made was the post access hollywood climate where donald trump's accusers were -- their voices were being heard. there were debates going on in newsrooms. and certainly someone who had an affair with donald trump, albeit from what we know consensual affair, would have been incredibly damaging. the second was that you don't pay $130,000 if everything has ended perfectly and everyone has agreed to keep their mouth shut. you might, though, spend $130,000 if somebody feels like maybe some day they'll want to talk about it. and the observation was made to me that i

joining me now is joyce vance. she's a former u.s.attorney, now a law professor at the university of alabama, and naveed jamali, a former double agent. let me get your reaction to the reporting this week that the president asked don mcgahn, the white house counsel, to get rid of special counsel robert mueller. that of course didn't happen, but what do you make of the news and how does it change this investigation? >> so this has the ring of truth. we know that there was reporting in mid-june from april ryan and other sources that the white house was in turmoil over the president's efforts to fire mueller, and now we see some confirmation from additional sources. i'm not sure that this changes the contours of our understanding of trump's efforts to obstruct the russia investigation as much as it enhances our understanding. we know that he fired director comey. we now know from reporting yesterday that the president directed some of his subordinates to take efforts to destroy the reputations of three senior fbi career officials who coul

attorney joyce vance choospent 25 years give or take as a federal prosecutor, and an attorney and former staffer for house intel services. chris, i'd like to begin with you. in your background and research, what did you find out about what trump is like in a deposition, in an interview like we may very well be seeing? >> so i've been talking to a lot of lawyers who have questioned him over the years, and trump has given dozens and dozens of depositions for various lawsuits in his business career. and lawyers describe him as sometimes he can be very charming, focused and polite. other times he can be arrogant. he can be sensitive. and one of the most interested things i learned is sometimes he doesn't want to seem to prepare very much for the interview. and that's something that can really get you into trouble if you get hit with something you're not ready for in a very high stakes interview. >> joyce, where always ask you this question, but what must it be like to be mueller and one of the cocounselors in the president's office and to see the president seeming to dot the need for an inte

attorney for the northern district of alabama, joyce vance. mika is back on monday. so if you're just waking up, here's the news. a source with firsthand knowledge confirms to nbc news that president trump ordered the special counsel robert mueller be fired last june. the "new york times" was first to report the news and that the president backed down from that after white house counsel don mcgahn threatened to resign. that's according to four people told of the matter. the "washington post" adds mcgahn did not deliver his resignation threat directly to trump but was serious about his threat to leave, according to a person familiar. last night, the white house put out a statement from one of the president's lawyers declining to comment writing "out of respect for the office of the special counsel and its process" but earlier this morning, president trump responded to the report as he meets with world leaders in davos, switzerland. >> reporter: mr. president, why did you fire robert mueller? why did you want to fire robert mueller? >> fake news, folks, fake news. typi

. >> joining me is eli stokols and joyce vance former u.s. attorney. this, i see this whole thing as an attempt to sort of impeach the impeachers, eli. anything they can do. first the guy sending his love notes to somebody else at the fbi and now this thing about fisa approval. it seems they're looking for anything they can to chip away at the credibility and integrity of this investigation so when they come out with something whenever they do, it will be impeached already. >> it's obvious ha that is what they are doing. paul ryan doesn't want to fully see that and basically saying today, yes, let the mueller investigation proceed. don't mess with it. let rosenstein stay. he's also defending the release of nunes releasing this memo under the explanation is transparency. he's not allowing the democratic memo to come out, the minority report to come out. he's basically doing that, allowing the memo to come out knowing the whole point it's not happening in a vacuum being of it's being done to undermine the investigation. >> your thoughts about that, joyce

and begin with former -- joyce vance and bill crystal of the weekley standard. donald trump does have this experience. i think people underestimate him and his lawyers at their own peril talking strategy. what do you see in the nbc news report about the negotiations? >> there are an awful lot of variables at play here. although the government can subpoena the target of an investigation, assuming that president is target here, it's really frowned upon. and typically can only be done when u.s. attorney, bob mueller, with rod rosenstein's approval, when those folks and grand jury agree it's necessary, only way to get this evidence. you have to think through how unlikely the procedure is and how much more likely it is there will be negotiated accommodation. but it's risky for the president. he was on record last year saying he was ready to testify under oath. if he doesn't now, appearances to him will be extremely negative. >> and white house front, john dowd is saying something reasonable i think, doesn't comment on the communications with special counsel out of re

attorney joyce vance, who spent 25 queyears as a federal prosecutor. and meike eoyang., i'd like to begin with you. in your background and research, what did you find out about what trump is like in a deposition, in an interview like we may very well be seeing? >> so i've been talking to a lot of lawyers who have questioned him over the years and trump has given dozens and dozens of depositions for various lawsuits in his business career and lawyers describe him as sometimes he can be very charming, he can be very focused and very polite. other times he can be very arrogant, he can be insensitive and one. most interesting things i learned is sometimes he doesn't seem to want to prepare very much for the interview. that's something that could really get you into trouble if you get hit with something you're not ready for in a very high-stakes interview. >> joyce, i always ask you this question but what must it be like to be mueller or one of the co-counsel in mueller's office and see the president repeating as this mantra eight times in 90 seconds, "no collusion," to see

. >> for more on where this probe heads, i'm joined by nick ackerman and joyce vance, a former federal prosecutor for the district of alabama. and also, i should mention, in fairness, familiar faces and experts for us on the story. nick, do you feel better or worse tonight when you see everything we just ran through? >> it's not a good feeling, in the sense that it's just part of what we've been seeing over the last couple of weeks, where the republicans have been trying to do everything possible to undercut mueller. fortunately, i think diane finestein did the absolute right thing in releasing that testimony. it really undercut the republican narrative on what they've been saying about the steele investigation. it shows that the fbi investigation did not start because of the steele reports. >> which is huge. but let me push you on that. i think the disclosures in there are important, because they show the wide breadth of credible evidence that supported the concern to probe this. but, is selective release really the best route here? can we get a better set of information from the cong

attorney joyce vance. earlier this week jaffe made news because of his relationship to doug jones' opponent, roy moore. jaffe had defended roy moore's son against dwug charges. roy moore's wife had made this unusual claim. >> fake news would tell you that we don't care for jews. i tell you all this because i've seen it all, so i just want to set the record straight while they're here. one of our attorneys is a jew. >> then last week the report the jewish lawyer was mr. jaffe. jaffe told "the washington examiner" he voted for his friend doug jones, potentially an embarrassment to the moores. well, now the moore family has chimed in again explaining that richard jaffe is not the jewish lawyer to whom they were referring. they say it's another jewish attorney. today kayla moore named that jewish attorney. except one small problem. as alabama.com reports, roy moore reveals their jewish attorney, and he's a christian. that's "thing 2." >>> after it was reported last week that roy moore's jewish lawyer was a man

i'm joined with tim whiner, joyce vance, charlie savidge, and aswan. i have a very tough name so i always butcher my own name sometimes. i apologize. charlie, let me begin with you, if i may. i want it start with the devon nunez memo. what do we know that might be in it and the purpose behind it? >> what we've been told is in this memo three or four pages of bullet points summarizing a case that the secret fisa wiretap obtained by the fbi and justice department in october of 2016 right before the presidential election targeting carter page, former campaign aide to then mr. trump who had been to russia that summer was based on insufficient information or actually that it used information from christopher steele of the notorious steele dossier. salacious unverified dossier. the memo makes the case nat bi relied on the information which is dubious and didn't tell the judge that steele was paid by democrats to carry out that investigation. therefore misled the judge and therefore this whole thing was improper spying on the trump campaign by fbi agent who w

let's go to the great state of alabama, joyce vance is with us.publican strategist and political commentator susan d l delpursio, and jonathan is here as well. joyce, there's so many disturbing things that donald trump has done this past week. there's so many things that donald trump's done this past week including taunting the leader of north korea talking about a nuclear war and how his nuclear button was bigger than kim jong-un's nuclear button but also at home i want you to talk about how disturbing it is that the president of the united states is actually seeking out for attack a former political rival, or even not eve an political rival. somebody that worked for his former political rival, a private citizen talking about prosecution. can you talk about how retched this is and how it goes against just the basic tenets of our constitutional norms? >> we should all be deeply disturbed by this, joe, i think you're referencing the president's tweets and efforts to say that hillary clinton's former aide should be put in jail, and this has become a

attorney, joyce vance, and fbi double agent, naveet jamal. the idea of the attorney general of the united states sending a staffer to congress looking for dirt on the fbi director, we talked about this, you and i talked about this before, we talked about it 24 hours ago, how unprecedented is that? how disturbed should we be by that? >> yeah. i'll leave the criminal violation piece to joyce. just the fact that he's the attorney general, the head of that department, supposed to be looking out for the employees of that department, supposed to be protecting them, defending them, in this case he seems to be acting like a campaign opposition researcher, sending operatives out trying to dig up dirt on comey and have them placed into the media. that will have huge ramifications for him to lead the department. not just because of this anecdo anecdote, but it's the latest in a series of jeff sessions not doing his job as attorney general. when the president has come under attack, he has not stood up to defend the men and women of the department, and no