joyce vance, can you pick it up from there? >> well, i'm not all the way through the affidavit, andrea, but i think one of the interesting bits of information we get early on tallies up with what you've just said about this assessment that there's national defense information to be found at mar-a-lago and further on in the affidavit we get a little bit of specificity about where in the espionage act doj is looking. they're looking at a provision in that subsection that doesn't necessarily refer to classified material. of course the former president has already fronted out this apparent defense effort that he somehow magically waved his wand and de classified everything. doj seems to be side stepping that fight and relying on a part of the espionage act that only requires them to prove that the information that he kept in his possession would be national defense adjacent information. and so that part of the legal rationale for doj's search begins to pop into clarity when we see this information. something that seems i think impo

joyce vance, so great to have you here.o, i want to explore this private pardon papers scenario, right? the fact that this roger stone clemency document was taken when the fbi seized papers from mar-a-lago, normally, pardons go through the doj, i believe it is, office of the pardon. >> the pardon attorney, right? who routinely handles all pardons. >> is it possible that trump has a stash of private pardon papers, that might intersect with some of the things he did around january 6th? >> my temptation is to tell you, absolutely not, it's impossible. but this is trump the tweet talking about, right? he didn't do things like anyone else. the reason you have a pardon attorney is that there is an official record of a president granting pardons while he's an office, the only time he has access to the pardon power, which is very broad and expansive. could trump have done these privately? i suppose he could have. but there's one limitation. even trump would have to create some form of a record that pardon was issued, while he was i

attorney joyce vance. she also used to hold something that people are hearing about tonight, a top secret/sci security clearance. welcome back. >> good to see you, ari. >> when you look at the warrant and its basis, what can you glean from it? and does it look to you after a week of all kinds of attacks on this process that this was a validly approved and executed legal search warrant? >> that's a great question. and the answer is we don't know, because there is a missing part of this warrant that none of us has seen. that's the affidavit that was submit bade federal agent under oath, under penalty of personal perjury laying out probable cause that caused the search. i'm going to hazard a wild guess here that everyone was very careful, that this affidavit was fly-spec'd to within an inch of its life within the justice department and the judge gave it an even higher level of scrutiny before he put his name on it. so that is something i think we can move forward with. what we did learn, ari, that is absolute

the conversation former acting solicitor general and msnbc analyst neal katyal and legal analyst joyce vance, member of the "new york times" editorial board mara gay and host of "the beat," ari melber joins us this morning. joe. >> you know, ari melber, over the past several years, we have been a constitutional republic run by people who have little respect for the rule of law. a former president with his henchman who didn't think twice about breaking the law, didn't think twice about breaking constitutional norms or calling for the arrest of their political opponents, whether it was hillary clinton in 2016 or joe biden in 2020. in 2016 with chants at national conventions for doing far less than donald trump did when he was president of the united states. and then in 2020, donald trump is president of the united states, ordering his attorney general to arrest his political opponents. and i've heard it. i know you have. so many people, good democrats and independents and republicans asking the same question. is this guy above the law? well we wake up this morning, and we have an inkling. perh

. >> joining us now glenn kirschner former prosecutor and joyce vance, a law professor alabama law schoolnbc analysts. joyce, can you understand the significance of subpoenaing white house counsel in the white house justice department criminal investigation? seems a huge step in their investigation? how do you see it? >> it's very important certainly and what this signifies is that the justice department has now moved on to including the former president in their field of interest. doj doesn't investigate individuals, it doesn't target individuals, it looks at crime. so what this decision to subpoena the white house counsel and his deputy means is that the former president's conduct is within the scope of the investigation, because the white house counsel spoke directly to donald trump. you might be able to elicit testimony from him about trump 's reaction when he was told and show evidence that he was lost the election or when he was advised that some of his schemes for holding on to power or borderline illegal perhaps even over the edge. so this direct testimony that what trump said and

attorney and msnbc legal analyst joyce vance and tom nicolles and members of the "new york times" editorial board and msnbc contributor and analyst mara gay. joyce, starting with you. let's just work on what we know so far. i've asked this question to a few other legal experts this morning. is it possible that the feds found nothing? >> you know, anything is within the realm of possibility when you go and execute a search warrant, mika. you have probable cause to believe that you'll find evidence, but that is not always the case. here, though, the signals are that this was a significant exercise of the government's authority, something i think it is very important to keep reiterating. in these cases with national security implications are at least two possibilities. one is that they're searching because they have plans to prosecute. they're getting evidence for the prosecution. the other is that they're investigating and there is a grand jury that is looking at what is going on. but the primary concern is the recovery of classified documents, because having them out into the public where th

joining us now is joyce vance, current professor at the university of alabama law school and co-host sisters in law. joyce, thank you for being with us tonight. what is your expectation about this affidavit and the redactions and it's utility generally speaking? >> so, i suspect the answer is, we won't know unless until someone is indicted in this case. because doj will likely file under seal tomorrow. we won't know what redactions it is proposing. and trump is very safe, frankly, making the argument that the affidavits should be concealed and that the government has something to hide. because something that his two lawyers -- or former doj employees know -- is that this affidavit will need to remain sealed for a number of reasons, perhaps there is some small parts of it that the magistrate judge might decide to release. but most of it will remain redacted. a lot of the information contained in it will be classified. some of it will be grand jury material that cannot be released. so, say for the trump campaign here to say something -- not be forthcoming. as you point, out there is no

back with me mel somewhat murray and joyce vance.na bobb made this attestation that they had given everything back on june 3rd and that was not true. could she be in legal jeopardy? >> she could be in legal jeopardy. she submitted a signed certification to the government, and it's not true. the question is whether she knew it wasn't true and made a willful false statement which could subject her to prosecution, quite frankly, for making a false statement to the government, so if you're the government what you need to test here is her knowledge. was she relying on someone else who told her that there was a complete search that revealed nothing, or is she in fact the person here who is trying to tell the lie? joy, what that ultimately raises is the specter of whether she might decide to cooperate with the government in this investigation. >> because, wasn't she, joyce, sticking with you for a minute, wasn't she kind of the person who was the person of record in charge of the records. wasn't that her function? >> it was, and in these si

attorney, joyce vance, who spent 25 years as a federal prosecutor. she is now a law professor at the university of alabama. and andrew weissmann, former fbi general counsel, and former senior counselor counsel of the mueller probe. counselor weisman, we need you to help us. out there is a lot of reporting. and i want to start with this new new york times report. doj prosecutors are now asking for those white house documents, that the national archives gave to the january 6th committee. does that mean that the walls are starting to close in on trump? and all that we have heard from the january 6th committee is now making its way to the doj, who is taking action? e >> it means some of what the january 6th committee has is making its way. because they still -- the department of justice -- still doesn't have everything that the january 6th committee has. they gave a specific request for things related to false -- of the fake electors scheme. that was provided. so, that sort of witness testimony, and presumably some documents. but with this grand jury sub

joyce vance and a former u.s. attorney and our friend. o start from the top, then i'll get back to the january 6th stuff. i just want to remind people what alex jones was saying that got him sued. take a look. >> i don't know what happened in sandy hook. we played devil's advocate from both sides. it's as foehny as a $3 bill. there's been a coverup. anderson cooper got caught faking where they were. if children were lost in sandy hook, my heart goes out to each and every one of those parents and the people that say it. the problem is, i've seen actors before. >> make it make sense to me why this family only got $4 million. they asked for 150 million and also what about this second part of the damages? >> so i think the second part of the trial, this punitive damages phase that will take part tomorrow is the answer to your question, joy, because the $4 million in damages today, those are compensatory damages. that means that if the families prove up losses, for instance, the need to move, the need to have security, much of the medical care,

joining us now is joyce vance, former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama, current professor at the university of alabama law school, and co-host of the podcast "sisters in law." joyce, thank you for being with us tonight. what is your expectation about this affidavit, and the redactions and its utility generally speaking? >> so i suspect the answer is we won't know unless and until someone is indicted in this case. because d.o.j. will likely file under seal tomorrow, we won't know what redactions it's proposing. and trump is very safe, frankly, making the argument that the affidavit should be unsealed, and that the government has something to hide, because something that his two lawyers who are former d.o.j. employees know, is that this affidavit will need to remain sealed for a number of reasons, perhaps there is some small parts of this that the magistrate judge might decide to release, but most of it will remain redacted, a lot of the information contained in it will be classified, some of it will be grand ju

attorney joyce vance, former u.s.orney and senior fbi official chuck rosenberg and national reporter coral linnick, coauthor of the best selling author "i alone can fix it." ken, tell us more. >> a letter from the national archives to trump's lawyers back in may was published by john solomon who has ties to trump. officials are not pulling back on the authenticity of the letter. the letter redefines some of the things we thought we knew. it says even among the 15 boxes turned over in january, after a year of negotiating with the trump people, they found what they said was more than 100 documents, 700 pages of material marked classified, including the highest classifications of the government, top secret, sensitive compartmental information special access programs, the kind of stuff if disclosed could betray sources and methods. that's back in january. at the time, this was a letter where the trump team was asserting executive privilege over some of the documents and asking that they not be turned over to the fbi, and

attorney joyce vance who spent 25 years as a federal prosecutor. she is now a law prosecutor at the university of alabama. katie, since we were just quoting you, the first question is for you. your new reporting says that this investigation poses an unparalleled test for the justice department. how about an unparalleled test for a president? >> well, it's an interesting question, because again, we've seen a little bit of this in the monograms evening you referenced earlier. so much of the conversation has been around merrick garland, and the choice he will make, and the conversation is around the former president and how he's been pushing this again and again. the justice department did nick not go into this investigation related to presidential records and classified information, i think it would get to the point where lead to a search warrant to make sure it had obtained all the information that it is sought. in past cases, it had worked with people whether it was general petraeus, whether it was former secretary of state hillary clinton, to obta

attorney and law professor joyce vance and michael beshlof. >> as of last week, we were told the dnin't even seen these documents. the first step will be to get a hold of these classified documents found at mar-a-lago and start going through them to try to figure out what secrets potentially were exposed. they'll have to farm it out to the various agencies that were the sources of the intelligence. it's possible if it involved a human source, that some sources may have to be evacuated or protected. the complication here is it's not clear that the government knows whether any of this stuff was exposed to adversaries, whether it ever got out of mar-a-lago. they may have to act as if it was and take action accordingly. >> that would mean going to the national security agency if they think there was some technical source. it could be both agencies because it could be technical news involving a human source. >> exactly right. it could be a communication ser intercepted or a satellite image. there's precedent for that. president trump released a highly classified satellite photo when he wa

joining us now, joyce vance, so great to have you here, thank you for joining me joyce. >> good to see you alex. >> i want to explore this private pardon papers scenario. the fact that this roger stone clemency document was taken when the fbi seized papers from mar-a-lago, normally pardons go through the doj. office of the pardon, right? >> the pardon attorney, who routinely handles all pardons. >> is it possible trump has a stash of pardon papers that might intersect with some of the things that were done around january 6th? >> my temptation is to tell you no, absolutely not, it's impossible, this is trump we are talking about, he did not do things like anybody else and the reason that you'd have a pardon attorney is so that there is an official record of a president granting pardons, while he is in office and the only time that he has access to the pardon power, which is broad and expansive. could trump done these privately? i suppose he could have. but there is one limitation, even trump would have to create some form of a record. that the pardon was issued while he was in office. r

attorney joyce vance. she's a professor at the alabama school of law. her investigations could branch out of this for jones given those texts that the lawyers for the plaintiffs said that they got their hands on. for example, we haven't known up until now how much money he was making. >> there are a lot of possibilities here. some of them have personal implications for jones. for instance, financial issues and marital issues. he's in the middle of a contested divorce. but i suspect what the public is focused on is whether the text messages may be a smoking gun in the january 6th investigation. prosecutors would probably really like to have information about roger stone, who was involved in the willard war room. and there's reason to believe that he and jones were in close contact leading up to january 6th. so we know that the january 6th committee, not the justice department, has definitively asked to see those text messages. it seems very likely that d.o.j. will follow up with a grand jury subpoena as well. and we don't want to get too far out over our

now to for the right down with all this mean for trump, legally, let's turn to joyce vance. former united's attorney for the northern district of alabama, co-host of the sisters in law podcast. joyce it was good to see you. thank you for being with, us you heard my competition with suzanne about why donald trump would invoke the fifth amendment in this trial which is largely about his business. but there is something that suzanne was hinting at and that there is a lot donald trump can say because he's a big talker that could be held against him. and he may be worry about other cases in addition to this particular one which he was deposed. >> while looking at it from the perspective of trump's lawyers, this is the sort of client that you do not want to give free range to in a deposition. you want to do everything that you can do to constrain his testimony. so the statement that was issued today that you reference at the top of the show, it's very loyally, it sends voice in language that is unlike that used by the former president. this notion that he can't talk because no matt

let's bring in joyce vance. what is your reaction?orst suspicions that we've been discussing ever since news of this search warrant broke. the warrant documents apparently confirm that doj is investigating what could be criminal violations in the mishandling of classifying information. and the breadth of this search is pretty spectacular. it suggests that there are multiple areas, not the rooms where guests at mar-a-lago stayed, but pretty much any area where the president, the former president or his staff had access and where documents could be stored, that the search was broad and expansive. so what we're seeing here is something where it is still not clear, was this an effort to retrieve documents or will there be a follow-on prosecution. but nothing is off the table at this point. >> i have received the documents. ryan riley, thank you very much for forwarding it. coy say that with the "wall street journal" reported about what they searched and where they searched is indeed true, the 45 office and those store yj rooms, but not in

attorneys joyce vance and chuck rosenberg. cal, set the table for us. what do we know about this magistrate judge? who is going to argue before him this afternoon? we understand the trump lawyers were not taking part. >> reporter: yes. the two parties that we are going to hear from are this group of media organizations, around a dozen, as you said nbc news is one of them. we will hear from the department of justice. we will likely not hear from donald trump's lawyers. we heard from him on social media, but it's not clear whether or not he will change his mind and what his lawyers think. we sort of know what we're going to hear from both parties. first on the media's behalf, we will hear from lawyers who argue this was, quote, as they say, historically significant. it was unprecedented. the public has an inherent interest in understanding what the method was, what was behind that decision to carry out that search warrant last monday. we know the department of justice is going to try to keep it sealed. they write in the filing this week that unsealing the

attorney joyce vance, who has spent 25 years as a federal prosecutor, she is also a law professor at the university of alabama. and clint watts, west point graduate, former fbi special agent, and a distinguished research fellow at the four policy research institute. clint, i turn to use first. i wanted to share with you what the former cia director said earlier tonight. >> these are exceptionally sensitive documents that are restricted in terms of who has access to them. who can handle them. how they are stored. and to take them out of the white house i think is just the height of recklessness and irresponsibility. they are not even uploaded into top secret information systems. >> clint, any idea, we are civilians, mear mortals, any idea what these documents could be and how they just couldn't be so dangerous for the united states that they are in the former guys basement? >> i think what's the direction brennan said was right. anything involving nuclear is given special code and restricted access. and we go into the government, certain things have even higher levels of security clas

attorney, and university of alabama law professor, joyce vance. s a federal prosecutor. joyce, prosecutors wanted a 15-year sentence, saying his crimes should be treated as a type of terrorism, but the judge said, no way. it's seven years long enough to send a message to other defendants? >> so, i think the question comes into parts, steph. first of, there is this rather arcane sentencing guidelines question, and the judges are really being asked to pass on whether to act itself was an act of terrorism. i think we can all look at the conduct on january 6th, and agree that what guy reffitt did was domestic terrorism. he tried to use coercion or intimidation to influence the government. that is the technical legal standard in the sentencing guidelines, but the judge also had to consider whether applying it here would have been consistent with other sentences, they'd have been imposed in these cases. and since this is the first one, and since other defendants have engaged in very violent acts, i think the judge was really being patient, and trying to

joyce vance spent nearly a tiredly of rock obama's two terms of president, almost eight years as thetrict of alabama. that is why she is here. among other reasons. joining us now, joyce vance, so great to have you here, thank you for joining me joyce. >> good to see you alex. >> i want to explore this private pardon papers scenario. the fact that this roger stone clemency document was taken when the fbi seized papers from mar-a-lago, normally pardons go through the doj. office of the pardon, right? >> the pardon attorney, who routinely handles all pardons. >> is it possible trump has a stash of pardon papers that might intersect with the things that were done around january 6th? >> my temptation is to tell you no, absolutely not, it's impossible, this is trump we are talking about, he did not do things like anybody else and the reason that you'd have a pardon attorney is so that there is an official record of a president granting pardons, while he is in office and the only time that he has access to the pardon power, which is broad and expansive. could trump done these privately? i s

attorney, chuck rosenberg, joyce vance, frank figliuzzi. chuck, first to you.t is claiming he has the right to declassify documents. he declassified them before he removed them from the white house. theoretically, if he did declassify them before noon on january 20th, when he stopped becoming president, of course, does that exonerate him from any potential violation of mishandling classified documents? >> well, andrea, it's a great question. a bit of a theoretical one. a sitting president has the right, the privilege, the authority to classify and declassify the entire intelligence structure built for the ultimate consumer, the president. whether or not he did declassify it is a factual question. we don't know the answer to it. this may sound like a conjecture rabbit hole, but i guess it's also possible that president biden could reclassify documents. president george w. bush did that shortly after 9/11, reclassified certain documents for other reasons, not nefarious. sitting presidents have that authority. that authority now resides with mr. biden. but we don'

joining me now msnbc contributor joyce vance. she's a former u.s. ssor at the university of alabama school of law. joyce, good to see you. my new jersey accent slipped out there. as a former prosecutor, what do you make of two trump departments deleting text messages from key officials? and how would you look into it? >> well, they've offered an excuse for what they've done, but sort of past the smell test to some extent. it's the end of an administration. they've taken old bones. they're wiping them out, and getting ready to get them to the next generation of political leaders at their departments. but the problem with that excuse, which on its face is the sort of thing that could happen in government. it's that everything changes on january 6th. and people in leadership roles, in these executive branch agencies know that there is going to be inquiry. they put a notice to some extent by different committees in congress, but they have to know that this is all coming, that preserving information is critical the government employees with an obligation

morning joyce vance former attorney for the northern district of alabama. msnbc contributor, host of the sisters in law. podcasts idealogue to, your professor and chair of the departed african american studies at princeton university. and msnbc contributor. still to come on velshi. conversation crucial getting to president biden on board with the forgiving of student loan debt. congressman -- talking to me about her role to forgive up to $20,000 per person in student debt, even though she wish that never had been a lot higher. first, after the break, extraordinary new nasa mission scheduled to take a dramatic first step tomorrow, as united states lays the groundwork's. groundwork's like #6 the boss. pepperoni kicks it off with meatballs smothered in rich marinara. don't forget the fresh mozzarella. don't you forget who the real boss is around here. it's subway's biggest refresh yet. with godaddy you can start a stunning online store for free. easily connect it to social platforms and marketplaces. and manage all your sales from one place. because if you've

msnbc contributor, msnbc legal analyst, current law professor in the university of alabama and joyce vancehere and another friend at this table, best-selling author kurt anderson, his most recent chart topper, co-creator of studio 360 who is making a very important movie right now with a famous director. we'll talk more about that throughout the day. jackie, you're among those journalists that i touted before in doing great work today in understanding what happened. you are on the byline of this washington post piece we read from and you're all over the story. give us as much detail as possible about that june 3rd meeting between the members of trump's legal team and the justice department. it seems pretty important. >> yeah. so what we know about that meeting is that officials finally traveled down to mar-a-lago to meet with members of trump's legal team to go discuss and figure out what other materials might remain despite all of the extensive back and forth over the course of the entire year, really, not just between the fbi and trump's legal team and the national archives. these were e

attorney and msnbc legal analyst joyce vance. they are saying they need to wait until at least after the election because he's so busy. >> reporter: that was the crux of there are argument. it's something the judge didn't want to hear about in court. he said i don't want to hear about the political implications, but in their legal filings and the little bit he was able to mention in the courtroom, that's what the kemp team is leading into, saying because we have about two and a half months in what he calls the mostly watched gubernatorial race in the country, there's no way what's happening here would not seep into the politics and campaign leading into november. he says because we're essentially on the eve of the election, they're not saying he shouldn't testify at all, they're saying if you're not going to quash the subpoena, just allow him to come back and testify after november wraps up. the d.a.'s office are arguing what the governor potentially has to say is so important, so crucial that it cannot wait until after the inves

for more let's bring in mar caputo, joyce vance, and katy -- mark, you were in court yesterday.you expecting to see from this judge? >> not a heck of a lot. john rhine hard is a former federal prosecutor. he's aware of the stuff we really want to know about, how the investigation happened, what witnesses are saying, the juicy criminal stuff is going to be kept under wraps. the justice department made the argument you can't release this stuff. if you do, it will identify sources, methods, and they talked about how the judge had found probable cause that donald trump had obstructed justice. i don't expect a heck of a lot to come out of it. having that been said, a little more information will go a long way. as both sides said, the longer it goes on, the more of a blackout, the more it's filled with conspiracy theories and lies. we're sort of in this position where we're groping around in the dark trying to figure out what is and is not. >> last night donald trump's lawyer was asked about why they does request that. he's what she said. >> you had parties from both sides of the aisl

antonio hilton is following the fallout and with us legal analyst joyce vance. tell us more about this indiana abortion law. >> if you every a woman in indiana we are looking at a near total ban with narrow exceptions. in the case of rape, incest, a fetal abnormality or the life and health of the mother. also looking at a ban on clinics doing the abortions so it is restricted to hospitals. and to put that part of the change in perspective 98% of abortion procedures have been performed at clinics in this state and places like planned parenthood can't do the procedures starting september 15th. this law has also come on the heels of a lot of attention on the state as a 10-year-old who was raped in ohio traveled to indiana for abortion care. >> these kind of decisions are never made in a vacuum. and there are polls going each way but actually the insistence is we protech as many people as possible. >> if you are pro life you can't be happy. if you are pro choice you can't be happy. people need to vote in november. >> many of the anti-abortion lawmakers in the state

we are also likely to have joyce white vance, msnbc legal analysts, to join the conversation. this case before the first amendment? >> defamation lawsuits are powerful tools, and it is unusual to see one deployed and the precise way because the facts are so very one-sided in this situation. one suspects that there would be a lot of pressure on the fox defendant to settle the case shore of trial, although a settlement could be painful going to trial, almost guarantees a broader exposure of these sorts of really kraken lawyer fever dreams that are being spread here. in terms of the first amendment, this is a way of getting into the marketplace of free speech and drawing lines that make very clear just how serious are prohibitions against defamation of people continue to be in law, one of the most really eclectic and very fitting elements of this sort of law -- is the plaintiffs are entitled to get some form of truth telling from defendants in the same for where lies were told. as you indicated, there are beginning efforts in that area, only gets worse as the case goes to trial. >

mike schmidt, joyce vance, frank figliuzzi, a.b.d, thank you all so much on starting us off on another extraordinary day of headlines. >>> it is election day today in several states with competitive primaries throughout florida and new york state. one race, however, is a special election in a swing district that could go either way. the democrat there running on the urgent need to protect a woman's right to make decisions about her own body. we'll have a live report on how that is resonating at the polls today. don't go anywhere. today. don't go anywhere. next big american. pressure, pressure? pressure, pressure. so where do you think this pressure's coming from? everyone. i'm just here for the mints. [ cheering crowd ] so much pressure. pressure makes diamonds. true. pulisic! he scores! incredible! my active psoriatic arthritis can slow me down. now, skyrizi helps me get going by treating my skin and joints. along with significantly clearer skin, skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. and skyr

attorney, joyce vance, who spent 25 years as a federal prosecutor. she is also a law professor at the university of alabama, a reporter for the new york times, he is also the author of the new book, insurgency, how republicans lost their party, and got everything they ever wanted. >> i've got to props today. two pages you, from a document, so you have one with zero. this is zero redactions. you have one with partial redactions, and then you have one that is completely redacted. we are getting something that looks like one of these documents. what are you expecting to see, especially since he noted that the doj edits were narrowly tailored, and this investigation is ongoing? >> well, it's an interesting question. i am still surprised we will see anything at all, still surprise a doj, apparently, will release this without appealing it. what that suggests is they have figured out, there are portions of the affidavit that can be released. most likely, that would be the story of the back and forth between the trump campaign, doj, involving negotiations to

attorney joyce vance argues that publicly discussing a case where no charges have been filed will only give credence to those who say the search was politically motivated. joining us now, nbc news and msnbc legal analyst andrew weissmann who is also a former general counsel for the fbi and served as lead prosecutor in the mueller special council office. also with us, congressional correspondent for "the new york times," annie carney. good to have you both with us this morning. we appreciate you joining us. >> so andrew, i'd love to get your insight on what is happening with the doj right now. you obviously, like so many people, frustrated at the information that you gathered during the mueller investigation. but that was not acted upon. do you think the doj's moving in the right direction and do they -- i'll ask you the question we've been asking everybody, do they have a responsible to be transparent and talk about why they raided donald trump, according to donald trump, raided, why they went in and conducted a search, a legal search at the time they did? >> you know, i think it is a

i want to bring in joyce vance now, former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst. joyce, thank you for joining us on this sunday. i want to read you part of trump's new statement claiming they took privileged documents. he writes it has just been learned that the fbi and it's now famous rate of mar-a-lago took boxes of privileged, attorney-client material, and also executive privilege material which they knowingly fun not have taken. it goes on to say that they should immediately be returned to the location from which they were taken. what are we to make of this new statement? is it possible that two things could be true in the same time, that information can be classified that needs to return and was privileged? >> now, it's just not true. trump -- i sort of like the fact that he's continuing to talk, and by the people at doj and to like it to. he is going through a shifting array of potential defenses and as soon as one fails he is on sunday new. it paints a very complete picture of what is happening, here. the seizures were authorized by a search warrant signed o

betsy woodruff swan, tracy walder, andrew weissmann and joyce vance, thank you. >>> when we return, wedonald trump had some sort of standing order to declassify any document that he took from the white house. assify any document that he took from the white hoe.us i brought in ensure max protein with 30 grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. uhh... here, i'll take that! yay!!! ensure max protein, with 30 grams of protein, 1 gram of sugar enter powered by protein challenge for a chance to win big! between two initiatives on sports betting. prop 27 generates hundreds of millions every year to permanently fund getting people off the streets a prop 26? not a dime to solve homelessness prop 27 has strong protections to prevent minors from betting. prop 26? no protections for minors. prop 27 helps every tribe, including disadvantaged tribes. prop 26? nothing for disadvantaged tribes vote yes on 27. >>> president trump as a sitting president is a unilateral authority for declassification. he can stand over a settle of documents and say, these are declassified,

joyce vance, a former u.s. attorney, and michael steele, former rnc chairman. all three are also msnbc contributors of those. so welcome to all. ken, with you first here. as we consider this incident in ohio last week, and then the armed protest that was outside of the phoenix fbi office, that happened this weekend. what more can you tell us about that bulletin, warning of a spike in threats to federal law enforcement officials? >> good morning, alex. it's important to understand that we're not just talking about ranting on social media here. this bulletin describes specific, credible threat to federal agents. and it reflects the reporting that we did here last week, where private firms were telling us that they were seeing the exact same thing in the darker corners of social media. an absolute spike since the search at mar-a-lago in specific, credible, detailed threats to fbi personnel and fbi facilities. and this joint intelligence bulletin we're reporting on even says in some cases, people posting threats are also posting names, identifying information, name

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we talk to joyce vance in the last hour who said this is an example of trump's evolving defense. can you elaborate on what you tweeted? >> sure, doj gets its hand on materials that are privileged all the time. in fact, they even seized devices from rudy giuliani in the past who was donald trump's lawyer. clearly there's going to be attorney-client privilege material there. they have processes in place, the cold filter teams or taint teams that go through and make sure they're not reviewing material that shouldn't be in their hands. it certainly is not with donald trump says. just give it all back to me and pretend you never took it. there is a way this works and this isn't it. >> hugo we've seen a strategy from the trump playbook to muddy the waters. throw up theories, for example, the items of mar-a-lago were declassified and they don't need to be declassified to be a violation of the statutes that were noted in the warrant. here trump is saying that he learned some of the documents were privileged, maybe he didn't even know they were in there, and now he's showing outrage. is t

attorney, joyce vance. she's an msnbc contributor and professor at the university of alabama school of law. good to see you both. joyce, i want to start with you. let's talk about this new reporting from the times. what would it mean if trump's own attorney falsified a statement to the doj? >> so, what this does, alicia, is a tight lights how dependent we are on understanding the facts, what's actually happened here, before we can reach any understanding of whether this was really just an effort by doj to reclaim these classified materials, or whether this is an investigation that's pointed, this perhaps headed towards indictment. because that will be heavily fact dependent. situations like the one that you are discussing, that we are newly learning about tonight, where people affirmatively took steps to conceal least important materials. it wasn't just a mistake, or perhaps, a certain amount of ineptitude, although gross negligence can be a criminal violation. if this looks like an intentional effort to kee

. >> joyce vance, a former united states attorney for the northern district of d alabama. we have much more to get to tonight including new details on the fbi search inside mar-a-lago. and an interviewch with some ve special friends of ours. stay with us.nt it's dr. scholl's time. our insoles are designed with unique massaging gel waves, for all-day comfort and energy. find your relief in store or online. i'm jonathan lawson here to tell you about life insurance find your relief through the colonial penn program. if you're age 50 to 85, and looking to buy life insurance on a fixed budget, remember the three ps. what are the three ps? the three ps of life insurance on a fixed budget are price, price, and price. a price you can afford, a price that can't increase, and a price that fits your budget. i'm 54, what's my price? you can get coverage for $9.95 a month. i'm 65 and take medications. what's my price? also $9.95 a month. i just turned 80, what's my price? $9.95 a month for you too. if you're age 50 to 85, call now about the #1 most popular whole life insurance plan ava

george vance is a joyce vance is a law professor at the university of alabama. she's in nbc legal analyst and she joins me now. joyce, legally speaking what does it tell you that the fbi was able to execute a warrant at the home of a former president? >> so, with the caveats that some of your earlier gas and had that we don't know the precise crimes that are being investigated, process wise with the search warrant means is that a federal judge or magistrate judge in the southern district of florida was convinced that the government has probable cause that crimes had been committed and that evidence linked to those crimes would be found at mar-a-lago. i can't underline how significant and serious this is. judges aren't in the habit of making these decisions flying by the seat of their pants. they evaluate the evidence very carefully. i suspect in this case much more so. and before the search warrant was ever taken to a judge for sign off on a warrant, it would've been evaluated both along the doj and the fbi lines of authority to ensure that everything had been c