k k. k. on, on, on the campus of what became washington and lee university. he was a white supremacy to the core. the civil war was not as is often been said by someone i admire like the monkey shelby foot speaking to ken burns, in that famous civil war series. it was never about states, rights was always and exclusively, essentially about slavery. and so this is, this is sort of, you know, a kurtz. i mean, just before he died, martin luther king wrote a beautiful piece about canada because he was given some lectures here and he said, you know, canada was the north star, our negro spirituals, road encoded messages on how you could actually get north on the railroad to freedom in canada, canada is a perfect place in terms of race and certainly in terms of our history, with indigenous people, the 1st nations, but we never were a society built on slavery. and that is, in some sense the inherent contradiction to the american experience, a country, the birth freedom, and democracy through the lens of the enlightenment. at the same time was living with that seed and wound which was that their entire economy was built on the atrocity of slavery, torture with greece of the end of the american economy. wade. you talk about robert lee and slavery in a, in another wonderful essay that i'll tell our readers about called this is america . a promissory note, not yet paid. you talk about robert e lee, but we now just saw in charlottesville, just very recently, the great statue of robert lee taken down. also in richmond, virginia, the statue that dominated the, you know, the main boulevard. taken down and chopped up and shipped off so they can figure out what to do about it in your peace. you quote james baldwin, who is, who has an optimism about the future. but he says, we can have, you know, essentially rose tinted glasses looking at things we need to see things how they are. so i guess, as we're talking about essentially, america unraveling in good ways and having that discussion. what are you seeing by way of, of, i won't call it a bounce back because i'm not sure that's what we deserve or want. but essentially, a more informed, more enlightened, less dysfunctional or domestic context in america. and maybe unraveling the american empire with the rest of the world is a healthy thing. mean, so how do you see the potential next steps? well, that's a very interesting point you raise. i mean, on the one hand, i think those of us who have some trepidation about the ascendancy of china for obvious reasons, which are not racist. reasons are simply about the political system. not about the chinese people, per se. would be concerned about the demise of america. on the other hand, of course, empires have come and gone. i mean, i love the image, for example, of the collapse of the roman empire. and so the italians kind of looked around and said, well, we're not going to do that again. why don't we have fun before you know, you've got this div, which is the italian essence, right? great food, great films, great beauty, whatever, you know. and so, in other words, here is a sort of transition that does happen in, in history. but, you know, the, i think we also have to remember that, that great line of lincoln's, can we not find the better angels of our nature. and my experience with americans is that there remains in a way that you might not recognize from the media a great middle way. and that's sort of what the dalai lama always speaks about. the middle way, which is, as i've gotten older, steve seems to make more and more sense seems to be more and more wise, something my father told me, and you know the polarization of america. but i really do believe that there's a big middle of america, not in the next sony incense of the middle america, you know, utilized a sort of exploit hatred and fear, but rather a true ground of good, decent people inspired by the very best of, of, of what their country has been and what it can be, and i think, i think frankly, for all the way that we like to and are almost called upon to criticize the follies of american foreign policy. you know, i, when 911 happened, i wrote a long, broad sheet called toward a global declaration of interdependence. and it was published pull out an alternate, our nation paper and canada was picked up and europe reprinted all over the world. the one place that it would not be printed was the united states because what it really called for was for us to understand the fundamental elements of the challenge of, of, of, of inequity in the world. but also what is really going on in the middle east. right. and it was neither pro israel or pro palestinian. it was simply, we have to recognize that there are forces at work here. there are reasons to be, quote, unquote aided, if you will, you know, obviously no american with touch. but, but, but the thing is that, i think for the sake of the world in the short term, it's hard to see whatever country might be in line to displace america in terms of international dominance that i'd, i'd want to be live in. you know, it's a fascinating thing to sort of look in part of the future and, you know, i sort of feel as if we are changing. we're an inflection point and don't know what coming next. i'll also tell you that in 2016 i interviewed then vice president joe biden about the domestic political scene in america. and he said to me that the democratic party had become a party of snobs. and that where they did not feel what was happening, the people in the street that had lost their jobs in the financial crisis that were struggling over race and identity and drugs and opioids, etc. and that we were getting a lot of this wrong. and i just love, you know, from your, i know that you're deeply ingrained in america and a lot of fronts, but you also have a kind of off short perspective. how do you look at biden, in his approach so far? is he solving this not problem? or do you suspect that this is going to take much, much more work and work through for us to get into a different place? i think he was right on point with those comments. you know, whether he's been able to deal with it. he's only been an office for a while and he's been overwhelmed by the debacle in couples. i mean, i think i, i think that, you know, the, the retreat, the abandonment in the sense of afghanistan was his cat as a cataclysmic if and uninterrupted as that from saigon in 1975. but in defense of biden, i suppose how else where they're going to ever get out. and i think it was never going to be pretty. and inevitably, whether they like it or not, they're going to leave countless people behind who would undoubtedly become victims of the of the taliban. or in the case of south vietnamese vietnam, of, of the, of the viet cong in the north. and me is so, but it's business of snobbery. i think it's true. i mean, i think, you know, i think a big part. i mean, i, i think the trump cohort, if you will, the supporters were not nearly as monolithic as they were often depicted as, as they were reduced to caricature. there is something on the left, particularly in the sort of woke orthodoxy that is particularly infected. the universities were all words walk on egg shells and there's a kind of a almost tear radical orthodoxy of opinion. that if you deviate from you are not only wrong, you are demonized. and this is, i'm not a university professor. i can, i can say that this is not hyperbolic, i'm not exaggerating. and i think i think that, that kind of, that conceit, the anticipation of, you know, social engineering based on their values alone. the ology of the left i think, can be as offensive to people as the, as a kind of intolerance of the right. and that's, that's where we have to somehow find a way to the middle in terms of balance and understanding and some kind of recognition that if we're going to move our way forward, we have to understand that on any issue of public policy, there cannot be enemies there can only be solutions. well, i have to say that i'm just very grateful for a real discussion with real terms that's candid and not as controlled. so i want to just say thank you very much way davis anthropologist, botanist photographer author explore in residence. thank you so much for being with us today. thank you very much, steve. so what's the bottom line? my guess is not the 1st to predict that the american empire and the american dream are fading. what is happening is that american identity at home and abroad are being sorted out, but don't be so quick to dismiss america. ultimately, the mix of cultures with diverse backgrounds and experiences is a huge strength that most other nations don't have in working through it's racism. and the gap between rich and poor, the united states may come back, ultimately healthier, and less dysfunctional after cove. it, i don't want to sound like a pollyanna, but the soul searching that america is experiencing right now may just be a driver, a positive change. and that's the bottom line. ah, al jazeera recounts the shocking story of the assassination of counts full cabana dot. the 1st un envoy trying to bring peace to the middle east. how is negotiations with himmler helped save thousands of jews from nazi concentration camps and how these mediation skills put him at the vanguard in the quest for peace in the middle east. killing the count on al jazeera meteorites, small natural rocks from outer space that survive the jones down to us and have high market value for rock and minimal collectors. alders even worlds joins the moroccan nomads in their desert such with these gifts for adults. yeah, i can tell that it's a meter, right? had it is it is i me to roy morocco's meet you write hunter's on all disease the i'm how no he didn't until how would the headlines on al jazeera, the diplomatic disputes between francis trailer, the u. k. and the u. s. continues to escalate. francis accused destroyer of a breach of trust after its scrap to submarine contracts saver of a deal with the united states. you muscle there have been lies. there has been duplicity there.
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