k.t. mcfarland's account. here is the amazing thing. k.t. mcfarland told the fbi, no, we didn't talk to russia about sanction, even though they did. then flynn pleads guilty to lying to the fbi about talking to russia about sanctions. after flynn pleads guilty, she goes back and oh, wait, oh, wait, sanctions? is that what you were talking about? i am so sorry, i plum forgot, but now i remember, yeah, i think we probably did talk to the russians about sanction. i'm so sorry. and the fbi decided not to charge her because they believed her that she just forgot? here's the next line in that remarkable story from shane harris and devlin barrett. quote, just days after flynn talked to the russian ambassador, mcfarland said that her memory was clear and that flynn and the russian official had never discussed sanctions. quote, early on the morning of january 13th, 2017, mcfarland phoned one of the authors of this article, so one of the two reporters. quote, mcfarland insisted in an on-the-record conversation that flynn and the russian ambassador had

k.t. mcfarland knew that flynn talked to russia about sanctions. she lied publicly about whether the incoming trump administration was talking to russia about sanctions. she lied publicly about it, she lied on the record to reporters about it, she lied to the u.s. senate about it, she lied to the fbi about it, but then they apparently forgave her when she said, it was so long ago, i forgot, maybe. mike flynn also lied about those conversations he had with russia. he lied in public, he lied to reporters, he lied to the fbi. why were they lying about it? on its face they didn't need to. it would make sense that they would be talking about sanctions to the russian government, conceivably they're the top two security officials for the incoming administration, there's going to be a change of policy on that matter, it's not that weird, but they lied about it. the fact that they were lying about, meant that those two senior trump administration officials, the number one and number two officials at the national security council under this new president, th

k.t. mcfar l mcfarland. she was a fox news pundit, and for a hot minute, she became the top deputy national security adviser under mike flynn. thanks to the "new york times" reporting on the transition at the time, we know that k.t. mcfarland was in on what mike flynn was doing on these calls to russia. but nevertheless, she lied about it, too. she lied about it famously to the senate under oath, which scuttled her chances of becoming an ambassador. that's what they tried to do with her after flynn had to resign and then he pled guilty. but, you know, in terms of k.t. mcfarland and her lying about these russian sanctions discussion, reporter shane harrison and devlin barrett at "the washington post" had this remarkable, remarkable piece about her back in skpeeptember it didn't get that much attention at the time, but now turns out to be pretty important. in that piece in "the washington post" in september, we learn that not only did k.t. mcfarland lie to the senate about those conversations with russia about

k.t. mcfarland. if what mueller is trying to say here is, in addition to the information flynn provided, he also got other people to kind of come clean and be more forthcoming, that could be a very significant piece of this whole collusion puzzle. >> joyce vance, what message is robert mueller trying to send with this phrase, however, senior government leaders should be held to the highest standards? >> right. he's stating a very clear principle that applies to the president, perhaps to his daughter, who is a senior counselor, indicating that people who are entrusted with great responsibility have a great obligation. that's how robert mueller's lived his life. that's a principle that doj prosecutors operate under. he's indicating that people in government should be held to a high standard, and i think we need to help rudy giuliani out, this is not what my grandparents would call bubkas, this is the whole schmear. mueller is saying, he's got it and he's coming after folks. >> you said it's an indicati

k.t. mcfarland and so were other people in the transition. they all knew while flynn lied about it publicly. they all knew while flynn got in trouble for lying about it publicly. they all told their onleys about it publicly. and again, talking to russia about sanctions shouldn't have been a secret at all. why were they all keeping it a secret? and on top of all of that, the person whose role in all of this is perhaps most implausible and therefore most troubling is actually the vice president, mr. rob roboto, mike pence. while over half the officials in the administration were overtly talking about flynn's discussions about sanctions, mike pence, the head of the transition said he knew nothing about that, never heard any of that, no idea. when another controversy about flynn arose and flynn had to retroactively register as a foreign agent who had been secretly working for turkey during the presidential campaign, flynn's lawyers said they notified the transition multiple times, including in writing about flynn's ties to that foreign government

k.t. mcfarland, michael flynn were all transition people activity engaged in communications with russians and others around the u.n. around the palestinian settlements issue. if mueller feels that there was misstatements by them or that they've somehow obstructed something to do with his investigation, then maybe they have something to worry about. but it's pretty speculative at this point. but those are the names that come to mind. >> there are so many redactions we've been talking about. that means outstanding questions. those close to trump can seize on some of those redactions and say there's nothing in here saying there is definitely collusion. but if you look at page 3 of this memo, it says the defendant provided firsthand information about context and contact between the transition team and russian government officials. >> two things -- it's not hypothetical. it's saying there were interactions and they're firsthand. so michael flynn is not talking about hearsay. he's talking about firsthand knowledge, being involved potentially in communications between the parties. it could be po

k.t. mcfarland, who worked for him when she was at mar-a-lago, perhaps jared kushner on the question of the israeli settlement questions. so, yes, it does bring more people into this sort of question about was he getting advice from the president on what he should do vis-a-vis sanctions? was he talking to anybody else? this was the national security adviser. and that is why it's so important and that is why sally yates was so concerned about any kind of improper communications with the russians that could leave him and the administration vulnerable. so, you know, i mean there are lots of layers to this onion and it includes a lot of people. so this has gone on for a very long time. we have to presume that mueller knows a lot. >> greg, president trump keeps tweeting, sending encouraging messages saying he would definitely not testify against the president. and last week the president said he would not rule out a pardon for paul manafort. is this witness tampering? >> it may be. it's certainly that in my experience as a federal prosecutor, it the sort of thing that would cause investigators a

k.t. mcfarland of the transition team at mar-a-largo saying hey, who do i say to kislyak? nobody directed him to tell a lie. >> flynn is an army guy a chain of command guy. i don't think he's a rogue person that way. when having those communications at mar-a-largo and he's now in contact with the russian ambassador talking about the sanctions that were issued that day, that's a problem for anyone. anybody would see that's an issue here. to lie about it, the cover-up is worse than the crime. >> shepard: what does this mean for flynn and the president? >> i'll tell you, what i was surprised at -- i have the plea agreement in front of me here with flynn. he didn't enter into the 11 c 1 plea. if the judge accepts the agree, the prosecutors can agree to a determined sentence and the judge cannot deviate it from. that's not done here. the judge can add relevant conduct, which is the stuff that he's bringing up. the turkey thing that you didn't get charged with, all this other stuff is aggravating the case and he's telling them that i'm going to put you in jail. people think it's

k.t. mcfarland who amended her statement to the fbi about this after mike flynn pleaded guilty to lying to those agents. >> clint, it must be a feeling, a singular feeling, you're the only one on the panel who has done this, represented the fbi and sat across from civilians and looked them in the eye as you're looking at me and started the questioning process, reminding them that they had better be honest because you're an officer of the federal government. boy, i bet that focuses the mind. >> yeah, i mean, usually they're nervous as soon as you show up. especially if you're showing up based on an investigation. he -- they did the classic style of this. you start in with rapport building, you sit down with them, you start having the conversation. they went through his history. okay, when was the first time that you hung out with russians? oh, i went there, you know, i met with the head of the gru, and then they worked it back to the very specific points. it's like a funnel. you start very wide then go very narrow. the interview notes conclude right with the question that they wanted to ask

k.t. mcfarland. that seems to be a crucial unanswered question here about where the directive came from. >> i think that's right. i think what one question is, was he directed to lie? and under -- and why did he lie? but another possibility is that this false statement is not the actual reason that mueller is this -- was so interested in flynn. he's interested in flynn because of other things he may know and that that's actually the body of his cooperation, this lie was merely the low hanging fruit leverage that he had that could -- that they could plead and that could, by the way, didn't necessarily involve anything classified. and so you could -- you could do it all in public. >> good point. >> in a way that maybe some other stuff was not doable in public. >> then there's also the fact, which of course we all know but i was just going back through it to remind myself of this set of facts about this, about comey and the explicit ask that the director of the fbi, essentially drop a criminal inquiry t

k.t. mcfarland, reince priebus, sean spicer, a lot of other people who were fully read in on the fact that mike flynn was talking to the russians about sanctions. they were c.c.'d on e-mails and they discussed the fact he was doing it. why did they all lie about the conversations as well? flynn was lying about it publicly, lying to other members of the trump administration apparently about it, lying to the fbi about it. but there were other people who knew about it, too, and they lied about it, too. and why were they all lying? >> well, i am still recommending to people that they rewind the beginning of your show on friday night for the best possible analysis of the why did mike flynn lie and why did they all lie, about anything involving russia. it's the best explanation we have so far, that it is all one project, this russian interference in our election, the trump attempt to do business in russia by building a trump tower in moscow, and the reveal that we got on that last week through michael cohen, that that, as you described friday night, is the big project in which everyone had to li

k.t. mcfarland who was clearing all these conversations and what they were going to do with jared kushner,sident and maybe others. when you look at who might have jeopardy, it's all of the people in on that initial decision to have these conversations with sergey kislyak. did any of them know that mike flynn was going to lie? there was this other question about obstruction of justice. flynn was able to stay on his job for several weeks after the government -- after the white house knew that he lied because sally yates came and warned them. what was happening during that time period? it's the same time period when the president went to jim comey and asked him to back off the mike flynn investigation. so all of these questions about the initial lie and then the moves to obstruct the investigation in its very early stage. months before bob mueller was appointed. i think anyone involved with any of those threads has to be worried about what mike flynn was telling in those hours and hours of interviews. >> mike schmidt, the last word on this. any sense from covering the white house and covering