let me start by opposing a question to karen chen from the public defenders office. karen, can you -- how about if you start by giving us an overview of how the city handles this conflict between treatment and civil liberties. >> an involuntary hold starts in san francisco when a peace officer or a clinician makes the determination that the person is due to a mental disorder, is a danger to others or danger to self or gravely disabled. gravely disabled means that person does not have the ability to provide for basic needs such as food, clothing and shelter. and the legal representation starts in most cases the first 3 days of the involuntary hold during the initial psychiatric evaluation and then the legal representation also continues with if the person is asked to be stayed or referred for further treatment up to 14 days. during this phase, the attorneys will represent the clients about whether or not they will have to stay on this hold, whether they have to take medications. if a person after at the end of the 14 day hold is found that may need further treatment,