karl sandburg was asked, what was the ugliest word in the english language and he said, inclusive. i think it's still a major issue. >> within the main line protestant churches at least, this idea comes back and not only gay marriage, but the ordination of transgender people. in the presbyterian church, they have the local option. it's basically on their terms, regardless of ethics, it doesn't mean that someone else on the otherside of the country needs to admit that person. this is a hugely realistic thing. hundreds of churches have taken this opportunity to say, you're not christian enough, we want to leave your denomination. it gets down to property and it fractures the sense of it. do you have predictions as to which way this is going to go out? >> everyone hopes that everyone will be welcomed at the table and be able to come as they are. that's the hope. it doesn't seem that it's clear. in 2011, it didn't seem to be. you mentioned the presbyterian church. some said they wanted to leave and split because of it. the episcopalians went through the battle and now, they have gay an

karl sandburg was asked what was the ugliest word in the english language and he said, exclusive, religion and race and gent -- gender and sexual identity. >> within the main line protestant churches, at least. this idea keeps coming back. not only gay marriage, but the ordination of transgender people. in the church, they decided the local option. that's the san francisco county -- they wish to ordain someone, on their terms, regardless ofth licks or whatever, that doesn't mean that a presbyterian would need to admit that person. i thought that was huge. >> it was. >> hundreds and hundreds of churches took the opportunity. hundreds say, you're not christian enough and we want to leave. it gets down to property and it fractures the sense of it. do you have predictions as to which way this is going to play out? >> everyone hopes and thinks that everyone will be welcomed at the table and to be able to come as they are. it doesn't seem like it's clear. in 2007 -- in 2011, it didn't seem to be. you mentioned the presbyterian church. some wanted to leave and split because of it. the others went