tom caine said they were unrecoverable and kate duvall -- he said he knew kate duvall. did she tell you they were unrecoverable? >> she did not tell me they were unrecoverable. >> why not tell us april 4 when ms. duvall briefs this committee, both republicans and democrats staff members, and the briefing was how we would deal with -- how the i.r.s. would deal with committee requests for concerns about the loss or, excuse me, producing lois lerner's emails? ms. duvall could have told the committee at the time. >> i testified at some length in the past that our -- and earlier today -- >> here's the key question. let me jump in here a second. why not mid april when you knew? in fact, let's put up the slide. here's a question we had earlier in our hearings. hy not when you knew, what secretary of state -- what date did you learn could you not get her emails? >> as i testified then and i testified on numerous occasions, my judgment was, a, we needed to find out what emails we did have. we needed to put together -- >> why not any time in april. someone at the i.r.s. told someo

he said he told kate duval. did she tell you they were unrecoverable? >> she did not tell me they were unrye coverable. >> that's a problem. why not tell us april 4 when ms. duval briefs this committee, and the briefing was about how we would deal with, how the irs was going to deal with committee requests for concerns about the lost or, excuse me, producing lois lerner's e-mails. didn't know they were lost at that time. why didn't you tell us april 4th? >> i testified at some length in the past and earlier today -- >> here's the key question, let me jump in here a second. why not mid april when you knew. in fact, let's put you the slide. this is the question we had earlier in one of our hearings. why not when you knew, what date did you learn you could, you could not get all of her e-mail? i learned that in april. why not april? >> as i testified then and i testified on numerous occasions, my judgment was, a, we needed to find out what e-mails we did have. we needed to put it together in a full report, which we did. >> why not anytime in april. someone

kate duval knew in february. you wait until june 13th. why? >> i would note, all of those e-mails that determined whether they were -- that she had a hard drive crash, they were provided to this committee and the tax writers knew as early as the fall she had had a hard drive crash. the terms were produced -- the materials about the e-mail chain about her trying to restore her hard drive were produced to the tax writers in april and to this committee in may. there was no secret that we were hiding. we were processing through -- >> no. you were given as e-mails. but you didn't tell us there were e-mails you couldn't give us. why didn't you tell us you had -- the irs had destroyed e-mails that belonged to lois lerner? why didn't you tell us that in. >> first of all, e-mails from ms. learner, may have been de -- >> the tapes were recycled. when you back up tapes are destroy and recycled. so they are destroyed. why didn't you tell us you could not produce those e-mails that they were lost in april? >> this hearing is noted to be an update on what w

when you answered this you didn't tell us -- it would have been nice if we had known at that point kate duval and tom cain knew it was unrecoverable but somehow they didn't tell you because you'd have to disclose it when asked about it in congress. is that why they didn't tell you? >> i have no idea. at that point we were spending most of our time trying to produce the information for the determination process which we were able to do built middle of march. >> this is what no one can figure out. something this important, louis learner, the lady that sat in your chair and took the fifth, the central figure in this investigation, your lose your e-mails and your chief council knows in february that the lawyer in charge of document production knows in february, and they don't tell you and you can come in front of congress four times and not des close that and when you learn in april you can wait until june 13th to tell us, that is what the american people are like, no wonder there are morale concerns and no wonder there's a distrust. that is unbelievability! >> can i add one point? -- >> we didn'