pick and choose and for public services to become private when joining me to discuss it is katherine manga ward senior editor of reason magazine and reason dot com and mike elk labor journalist and contributing editor for in these times hey guys thanks for being here and now this is kind of just a sad sad story i guess first give me your take do you think that the firefighters did the right thing by just standing by you know it's actually an interesting story because. it's all about the context there's a couple things going on here one this family actually had the exact same circumstance happen to them three years ago no way i didn't know that they forgot to pay the fee forgot to pay the fee they had a chimney fire the firefighters came they put out the fire and the family paid the fee the next day. so i think it's not that surprising to suddenly discover that they forgot to pay that here you have absolutely no mercy for these people. you know i think that it's a question of of free riders it's you know we're used to the firefighters being so that's paid for in our taxes. but when they're not t