you'll recognize kathleen hall jamieson instantly.she's been at this table often, making sense of politics and the press. she is director of the annenberg public policy center at the university of pennsylvania, which runs factcheck.org, a non- partisan research organization that tests the accuracy of our political discourse. among her many books is my favorite, "unspun: finding facts in a world of disinformation." drew altman is president and c.e.o. of the henry j. kaiser family foundation, widely respected for its independent research and information on american health care. the foundation runs a superb, impartial website that looks at the health care reform advertising blitz and measures claims against the truth. welcome to you both. you're just in time. >> thank you. >> moyers: we're seeing this debate take a really ugly turn. let's take a look at how ugly. >> no more obamacare! no more obamacare! no more obamacare! >> tell me what page it's on. what page is it on? >> it is in the bill. >> what page? >> go and sit down. >> you want

. >> moys: that's what kathleen hall jamieson says.she saidhat in order to fix e long-term deficits, which are a concern to conservates, we neeto fix health care. is that what you're sayi? >> yeah, if u see president obama saying, volunteer to go into t beehive and put my hand inside the beehi and fix it," good luck, buddy. better youhan us. like, why aren republicans saying"here's some things you can do that we'll like." here are our r lines. if you do the publicption, no. suaxes, no. gher taxes on capital gains, no. but if you have an ideas to how to slow thgrowth in medica, if you want to do things like this healt exchanges, making itasier to afford to ke it easier to buy across state lin, well, good luck to you. thatounds pretty good. and if you're prepared ttake e political heat, again, you know, good luck to you. >> moyers: i'm remindethat you grew up canada. >> i did. moyers: couldn't the conservative, a calm conservative make case for that kd of national insurance plan in this count? >> look, where tho plans have growup, as in