last year it is she's now inspector katie blackwell but she was commander katie blackwell last year when she led her training. and she would have been the training commander i'd need 252020 is that right that is correct. there's other divisions within professional standards i think you mentioned internal affairs but there's also an administrative services division is that right yes and what is the administrative services division do minister it services division. can deal with everything from from grants different types of programs that the mid city of minneapolis is and barking upon. employee personnel matters as well also you know business software and equipment technology is software yes body cameras milestone cameras yes we met jeff through google and that's where he works is that right yes lieutenant rules are that yes. i'd like to talk to you a little bit about the minneapolis police department reacting to calls for service . the role of the minneapolis police department is generally to is to serve the communities law enforcement needs is that right that's rare and most requests fo

this is inspector katie blackwell. she used to oversee the training division. the commander of the training division and made it clear from her perspective that there's no training for a police officer to put his knee down on the neck of someone who is a suspect. >> and this is significant because, again, as you mentioned she was the commander in charge of training the officers and she said that, you know, every officer goes through a similar training and it's been like that in her mind since she started at the department. they talked about this phase three training and she, of course, is not the only officer and what makes her significant at this point is she is the third or high-ranking officer who has testified that the actions of chauvin, not saying his name yet in this case, but the actions of former officer chauvin were not in conjunction with the way in which they were trained. in other words, he had violated policy, but if you want to hear it more clearly, all you have to do is listen to his ultimate boss, and that is chief arredondo. he took the stand.

you will hear from katie blackwell as she will tell you about the training mr. chauvin received. you're going to hear that he was a veteran on the minneapolis police department for 19 years, had been trained in cpr multiple times. and you will be able to see for yourself that when mr. floyd was in distress, mr. chauvin wouldn't help them, didn't tell him. but you're also going to see and learn that among the bystanders was a first responder, a member of the minneapolis fire department who was trained in administering first aid and emergency care. she's going to talk with you. her name is genevieve. she wanted to check his pulse. she wanted to check on mr. floyd's well-being and wanted him to let up and get up. she did her best to intervene to be able to act, to intercede on george floyd's behalf. you will be able to see for your self when she approached mr. chauvin on top of george floyd, he reached for his mace and pointed in her direction, so she will come and talk with you about that experience. now, you're going to learn that in the aftermath of this, that m

. >> the state calls katie blackwell. [swearing in witness] >> if you don't mind taking of your mask. state your name. >> katie marie blackwell. schleicher: good afternoon. how are you employed? >> minneapolis police department. schleicher: your current position? >>si inspector. schleicher: how long if you been the inspector of the fifth precinct? >> january 31st this year. schleicher: what was your immediate rank and assignment prior to that? >> commander the training division. schleicher: i like you to tell the jury about yourself first. could you tell us about your educational background in law enforcement? >> my two-year associate's degree in law enforcement at the technical college my four-yearhe bachelor degree at st. mary's university. my masters degree public safety administration. i'm a graduate of northwestern police staff and command them just about to complete a two-year course it's the equivalent of a masters. schleicher:'s when addition to being a place officer you are also in the minnesota national guard. >>

>> last year, she is now inspector katie blackwell. she was commander katie blackwell last year when she led our training. >> and she would have been the training command or may 25, 2020, is that right? >> that is correct. >> okay. there is other divisions within professional standards, i think you mentioned internal affair, but there is also an administrative services division, right? >> yes. >> what does the administrative services division do? >> the administrative services division can deal with everything from -- from grants, different types of programs that the city of minneapolis is embarking upon, employee personnel matters, as well. >> also business software and equipment? >> technology, business software, yes. >> body cameras, milestone cameras? >> yes. >> and we met jeff rugel and that's where he works, right? >> yes. lieutenant rugel. yes. >> i'd like to talk to you about the minneapolis police department in reacting to calls for service. the role of the minneapolis police department is generally to serve the community's la

ok so right now we just seeing well this is katie blackwell who used to run the training of minneapolis police officers she is now minneapolis police precinct inspector interesting to note that as we heard with the police chief the daria. we the prosecution really taking her through background her experience because she's also part of the minnesota national guard she's been deployed to iraq conducted a peacekeeping mission and very interesting lee has known derek show then for 2 decades. very interesting witness and of course is very important to test me that we've had. earlier on today from the police chief. saying that the use of the neck restraint on george floyd was a violation of the minutes from the police department's policy that training's the ethics it went again against instructions from the minneapolis police department and actually john hendren is following developments and joins us now and john actually after the initial questioning by the prosecution are done joe is that questioned again and he was shown not that defining image wasn't he of the kneeling on george floyd's n

. >> reporter: that sentiment echoed by inspector katie blackwell, the former commander in chief of staff training for the department. >> is this a trained technique that is by the minneapolis police department when you were overseeing the training of it? >> it is not. >> and how does this differ? >> i don't know what kind of improvised position that is, so it's not what we train. >> reporter: under cross-examination chauvin's attorney showed the police chief pictures and questioned whether his knee was actually on floyd's neck the entire time. >> would you agree that from the perspective of officer king's body camera, it appears that officer chauvin's knee was more on mr. floyd's shoulder blade? >> yes. >> reporter: but the prosecution responding saying that was one specific mment when the ambulance had already arrived. the er doctor who pronounced george floyd dead also testified saying he believes the primary reason for floyd's cardiac arrest was lack of oxygen, not a heart attack or drug overdose even though the powerful opioid fentanyl was found in floyd's system. >> was your leading

as george floyd was in distress and he did not do that and then at the end of the day you had katie blackwell the officer who trained derrick chauvelin in the techniques of restraining somebody and she said i don't know what kind of improvise hold that was we don't train that so each of those points contributes to the prosecution case that derek chauvin was unjustified in using that amount of force the police chief went on to say that. the police were required if they had to hold him down at all and he said that me hold was not acceptable in any way but if they were required to hold someone down in that prone position they were also required to lift them up on their sides so that that person could breathe that didn't happen in this case. and not only did they deny medical assistance from the officers themselves there was a paramedic who came onto the scene and testified last week that she offered assistance and they refused to accept it so we have another 4 days if we keep to schedule of the prosecution making their case in the coming days what we expect is that the prosecution will go ahead

prosecutors calling inspector katy blackwell, the field training division. watch this. >> as you look at exhibit 17, is this a trained technique by the police department when you were overseeing the area? >> it is not. >> why not? >> well, use of force according to policy has to be consistent with npd's training. for policy, a neck restraint is pre pressing -- what we train is using one arm or two arms to do a neck restrain. how is this different? >> i don't know what kind of improvised position that is. it is not what we train. >> inspector blackwell is now the third high ranking minneapolis pd official to take the stand for the prosecution. on friday the department's top detective giving testimony, richard zimmerman that was damming to chauvin's defense. >> have you ever in all the year you have been working for the minneapolis police department been trained to kneel on the neck of someone who was handcuffed behind their back in a prone position? >> no, i have not. >> if that were done, would it be considered as a force? >> absolutely. >> what level of for

[background noises] >> the seat calls katie blackwell. [background noises] >> testimony will be the truth and nothing but the truth? >> i do. >> if you wouldn't mind taking off your mask, state your full name spelled your name. >> katie murray rockwell. >> thank you, your honor. good afternoon. >> how are you employed? >> minneapolis police department. >> what is your current position? [inaudible] >> how long have you been inspector of fifth precinct? >> since january 31 this year. >> what was your immediate rank and assignment. >> commander of training division. >> i'd like you to tell the jury about yourself first, could you tell us about your educational background in law enforcement? >> my two-year associate degree in law enforcement. my four year bachelor degree is in science at st. mary's university. my bachelors is in public safety administration from st. mary's university and undergraduate of northwestern. the most complete two-year course in the u.s. equivalent to masters. >> in addition to be police officer, your the minnesota na

as george floyd was in distress and he did not do that and then at the end of the day you had katie blackwell the officer who trained derek chauvelin in the techniques of restraining somebody and she said i don't know what kind of improvise hold that was we don't train that so each of those points contributes to the prosecution case that derek chauvin was unjustified in using that amount of force the police chief went on to say that. the police were required if they had to hold him down at all and he said that me hold was not acceptable in any way but if they were required to hold someone down in that prone position they were also required to lift them up on their sides so that that person could breathe that didn't happen in this case and not only did they deny medical assistance from the officers themselves there was a paramedic who came on to the scene and testified last week that she offered assistance and they refused to accept it. jordan's oriel court says prince hamza been hussein has signed a letter pledging his allegiance to the king jordan's government had accused the former crown pr

also heard blunt testimony from the former commander of the training division, the inspector katie blackwell, someone who's known derek chauvin for some 20 years. she said chauvin's knee on floyd's neck is not what we train. how far do you think that might go with the jurors? >> i think today was the strongest day for the prosecution that we've seen. last week was very emotional. you had a lot of young people testify. you had our heart strings being pulled. today really went to the heart. and i don't see how you get around a guilty verdict on something. i mean, what we saw today was he was completely reckless, negligent and the question will be whether or not he was intentional or not in his acts. because it's also rare, wolf, i want people to understand this. i'm sitting with some women who have actually done this before in particular, but it's very rare to see law enforcement come into a courtroom one after one after one and testify against another law enforcement officer. today was a brilliant day, a very good day for this country, because what we saw was law enforcement quite clearly com

and when the chief was finished testifying, prosecutors calling in katie blackwell, who was the commander of the minneapolis police field training division. >> when you look at exhibit 17, is this a trained technique that's by the minneapolis police department, when you were overseeing the training of it? >> it is not. >> why not? >> well, use of force, according to policy, has to be, you know, consistent with mpd training. and when we train are neck restraints, the conscious and unconscious neck restraint. so, per policy, a neck restraint is compressing one or both sides of the neck. but what we train is using one arm or two arm to do a neck restraint. >> and how does this differ? >> i don't know what kind of improvised position that is. so, that's not what we train. >> inspector blackwell, now, the third, high-ranking, minneapolis-pd official, to take the stand for the prosecution. on friday, the department's top-homicide detective, lieutenant richard zimmerman, giving testimony that was damning to chauvin's defense. >> have you ever, in all the years you have been working for the minne

>> last year, she is now inspector katie blackwell, but commander last year when she led our training. >> and she would have been the training commander on may 25, 2020. is that right? >> that is correct. >> okay. there's other divisions within professional standards. i think you mentioned internal affairs. but there's also an administrative services division, is that right? >> yes. >> what does the administrative services division do? >> administrative services division can deal with everything from grants, different types of programs that the city of minneapolis is embarking upon. >> employee, personal matters as well. >> business software equipment. >> technology, business software. >> body cameras, milestone cameras. >> yes. >> and we met jeff rugle, and that's where he works, is that right? >> yes, lieutenant rugle is part of that, yes. >> i'd like to talk to you a little bit about minneapolis police department and reacting to calls for service. the role of the minneapolis police department is generally to serve the community's law enforcement needs, is that right? >> that is cor

and commander katie blackwell, head of the training division for the minneapolis pd at the time of floyd'stestified, looking at a photo of chauvin on floyd said, quote, i don't know what kind of improvised position that is. it's not what we train. joining us now from minneapolis, shaquille brewster. so what's your sense of the impact of that testimony yesterday, first from the chief of police. we're not accustomed to seeing that, frankly, when the chief of police comes out and says in very clear terms that the former officer violated department policy in the death of george floyd. >> reporter: yes, willie, this was definitely a rare sight to see the chief of police taking the stand against one of his former officers. you heard in opening statements, the prosecution teased the fact that they would not mince words when he says that he believes that derek chauvin used excessive force and that held up yesterday. you heard him in that sound you just played saying that not only did he not act according to the training and policies, but he didn't act in accordance to the values and ethics of the

. >> reporter: npd inspector katie blackwell in charge of police training last may and testified chauvin was taught defensive tactics and proper use of force. her response to seeing chauvin kneeling on floyd's neck. >> i don't know what kind of improvised position that is. so that's not what we train. >> reporter: the emergency room doctor who treated floyd testified that he believed floyd's cardiac arrest was likely due to a lack of oxygen or hypoxia. >> any amount of time that a patient spends in cardiac arrest without immediate cpr, markedly decreases the chance of a good outcome. >> reporter: laingen feld tried to revive floyd for 30 minutes before pronouncing him dead. the prosecution argues that the hypoxia was a result of chauvin's knee on floyd's neck for more than nine minutes. the defense argues it have caused by floyd's drug use. >> certain drugs can cause hypoxia, agreed? >> yes. >> specifically fentanyl. >> that's correct. >> how about methamphetamine. >> it can. >> combination of the two? >> yes. >> reporter: in response, the prosecution dismissed the defense's claims. >> d

today heard from inspector katie blackwell, a police training commander, known derek chauvin for 20 yearst's listen to what she said. >> use of force policy has to be consistent within pd training. neck restraint is compressing one -- we train one arm or two to do a neck restrain. >> how does this differ? >> i don't know what improvised position that is. that's not what we train. >> remarkable, i don't know what improvised position that is, it's not what we train. directly contrary to what the prosecution said the jury is going to hear and understand. they now have the police and training inspector -- >> and you're referencing the defense opening statement, defense saying it. >> you're right, i'm sorry. >> but this puts a huge hole in the defense case. we have to remember though, standard isn't that defense has a burden, burden really does just lie with the prosecution, technically the defense don't have to put forward a case. burden completely lies on the prosecution. but when you choose to put forward a case as they did, this testimony is devastating. it's clear coming from their own th

amy: the former head of the minneapolis police department's field training division, katie blackwell,also testified monday. during questioning, she accused derek chauvin of violating the department's use of force policy. a warning, this contains graphic images of police violence. >> is this a trained technique by the minneapolis police department when you were overseeing -- >> it is not. >> why not? >> use of force according to policy has to be consistent with training. what we trained our conscious and unconscious neck restraint. a neck restraint is compressing one or both sides of the neck. what we trained is one arm or two arm to do a neck restraint. >> how does this differ? >> i don't know what kind of that is not what we trained. amy: to talk more about the trial of derek chauvin, we a byw york police department detective and now served as the director of the black law enforcement alliance. he joins us from colombia, south carolina. let's start off with this challenge the wall of silence, commander, training officer, the police chief himself condemning the actions of chauvin, yet

purposes however, there are two other officers that are in thank you, your honor as commander katie blackwell who oversees a training. i would note that again she has opinions as well as sergeant yang who is in charge of the intervention program. again, i am running, i'm concern that what would happen is, if the we have used the force experts that are coming in. so i'm concern the state is pigeonholing expert testimony into these officers were i think that these officers should be just like he testified, these are our training materials, these our training policies, well, -- >> i am allowing the chief test with the use of force was contrary to policy -- testimony. it is lieutenant blackwell? that opinion -- [inaudible] >> inspector blackwell. i am allowing that opinion. but crisis intervention, are we trying to get in mr. floyd's state of mind through the back door here? >> no, your honor. the proper testimony of sergeant yang will just be regarding minneapolis police department's crisis intervention training, that they provide to officers, 40 our scenario-based training course in which paid

remember, commander, now inspector katie blackwell who was in charge of all training, looked at this is that i don't even know what this is, i don't know what this modification is. this isn't how they train. these aren't the rules. lieutenant looked at this and he said, without equivocation, not in mpd trained tactic, it is not. we don't train our people to do this, you can present 1,000 hypothetical situations and talk about what didn't happen all day long into next week but when you talk about what did happen on that day at that time, that's what they said. use of force, unreasonable. supervisor, the force should have ended right after mr. floyd was on the ground. his supervisor said that. lieutenant zimmerman, the oldest-serving... i should say the most years of service on the minneapolis police department, longest-serving, correct myself, longest serving of the department looked at this and said this was totally unnecessary. totally unnecessary, the use of deadly force. not reasonable. the only reasonable force is authorized. sergeant steiger, expert witness, los angeles police d

remember commander now inspector katy blackwell who was in charge of all training? looked at this and said i don't even know what this is. i don't know what this modification is. this isn't how they train. these aren't the rules. lieutenant mercil, looked at this, and he said, without equivocation, not an mpd trained tactic. it is not. we don't train our people to do this. you can present a thousand hypothetical situations. you can talk about what didn't happen all day long into next week. but when you talk about what did happen on that day, at that time, that's what they said, use of force unreasonable. supervisor, sergeant pleoger, the force should have ended right after mr. floyd was on the ground. his supervisor said that. lieutenant zimmerman, the oldest serving or i should say the most years of service on the minneapolis police department, longest serving correct myself, longest serving member of the department he looked at this, he said, this was totally unnecessary. totally unnecessary. a use of deadly force. not reasonable. only reasonable force is authoriz

remember, the commander now inspector katie blackwell who was in charge of all training look at this and said i don't even know what this is. i don't even know what this modification is. this isn't how they trained. these aren't the rules. lieutenant mercill and said without equivocation is not an mpd tactic. it is not. we don't train people to do this. you can present a thousand hypothetical situations. you can talk about what didn't happen all day long into next week, but when you talk about what did happen on that day, at that time that's what they said. use of force unreasonable. supervisor, sergeant pluger, the situation should have ended right after mr. floyd was on the ground. his supervisor said that. lieutenant zimmerman, the oldest serving -- or i should say the most years of service on the minneapolis police department, longest serving. correct myself. longest-serving member of the department. he looked at this and said this was totally unnecessary. totally unnecessary a use of deadly force. not reasonable. only reasonable force is authorized. sergeant stiger, expert witne

>> she is now inspector katie blackwell. but she was commander when she led the training. schleicher: she would've been the training commander may 25, 2020. >> that is correct. schleicher: there other divisions within professional standards and there's also the administrative service. >> yes. schleicher: what does administrative services division do? >> it can deal with everything from programs the city of minneapolis embarks upon, grants, employee personnelat matters. schleicher: also business software and equipment. >> technology. >> body cameras. schleicher: we met lieutenant google and that is her he works. >> yes. schleicher: talk about the minneapolis police department reaction for calls to service. the role is generally to serve the committee's law-enforcement need. >> that is correct. >> most request for service come into the 911 system. >> yes. schleicher: officers respond to different calls for service. please describe the types of calls for service any of us police department responds to. >> it can range from everything lieutenant trouble to a party dispute dome

. >> and commander katie blackwell, held of the training division at the time of floyd's death, also testified. looking at a photo of chauvin on floyd she said, quote, i don't know what kind of improvised position that is. it is not what we train. the trial resumes later on this morning. >>> all right, now to the latest fallout over georgia's controversial election law. mitch mcconnell is sending this message to the corporate ceos who have come out against it. >> i found it completely discouraging to find a bunch of corporate ceos getting in the middle of politics. my advice to the corporate ceos of america is to stay out of politics, don't pick sides in these big fights. >> and while mcconnell is now telling big business to stay out of politics, the ap notes that he is, quote, among the most outspoken champions of the role of big money in elections promoting the free flow of undisclosed dollars to campaigns as a form of constitutionally protected free speech. they can have free speech with their cash but apparently not in these circumstances. senator marco rubio is calling out mlb c

in and his policymaking decision is for employment purposes but there o are two other officers katie blackwell and who oversees the training and to know that she has opinions and was in the crisis intervention program. i am concerned what would happen with the use of force experts that are coming in. i am concerned the state is pigeonholing expert testimony to the officers writing they should just be allowed to testify these are the training materials these are training policies. this is what we do. >> i am allowing the chiefs testimony the use of force was contrary to policy. lieutenant blackwell? that opinion, inspector blackwell. i am allowing that opinion. with crisis intervention. i we trying to get mr. floyd state of mind through the back door? >> no your honor. the proper testimony of the sergeant is regarding any applets police department crisis intervention training that they provide to officers. the 40 hours scenario -based training course that paid actors come in and they go through various scenarios such that officers can recognize people who are emotionally and behaviorally distur

remember commander now inspector katie blackwell who was in charge of all training and look at this andn't even know what this is. i don't know this modification is. this isn't how they train. these are the rules." lieutenant marcel looked at this and he said without equivocation not an npd train tactic. it is not. "we don't train our people to do don't train our people to npd train tactic. it is not. "we don't train our people to do this." you can present 1,000 hypothetical situations, you can talk about what did happen all day long into next week but when you talk about what did happen on that day at that time, that's what they said, use of force unreasonable. supervisor said "the force should have ended right after mr ford was on the ground". his supervisor said that. lieutenant zimmerman, the oldest serving, or i should say the most years of service of minneapolis police department, longest—serving, correct myself, longest—serving, correct myself, longest serving member of the department, what did he say? you look at this. he said this was totally unnecessary. totally unnecessary. a

. >> last year she is now inspector katie black will but she was commander katie blackwell last yeare led our training. >> and she would have done the training commander on may 25, 2020 come is a a right? >> that is correct. >> okay. there's other divisions within professional standards. i think you mentioned internal affairs but there's also at administrative services division, is that right? >> yes. >> what does the administrative services division do? >> they can do with everything from grants, different types of programs that the city of minneapolis is embarking upon. employee personnel matters as well. >> also business software and equipment? >> technology, business software, yes. >> by the, milestone cameras. >> yes. >> we met jeff lugo and that's where he works come is a right? >> yes, lieutenant rugel is part of that, yes. >> i would like to talk you a little bit about minneapolis police department reacting to calls for service. the role of the minneapolis police department is generally to serve the communities of law enforcement needs, is a right? >> that's great. >> most re

. >> last year she is now inspector katie black will but she was commander katie blackwell last year when she led our training. >> and she would have done the training commander on may 25, 2020 come is a a right? >> that is correct. >> okay. there's other divisions within professional standards. i think you mentioned internal affairs but there's also at administrative services division, is that right? >> yes. >> what does the administrative services division do? >> they can do with everything from grants, different types of programs that the city of minneapolis is embarking upon. employee personnel matters as well. >> also business software and equipment? >> technology, business software, yes. >> by the, milestone cameras. >> yes. >> we met jeff lugo and that's where he works come is a right? >> yes, lieutenant rugel is part of that, yes. >> i would like to talk you a little bit about minneapolis police department reacting to calls for service. the role of the minneapolis police department is generally to serve the communities of law enforcement needs, is a right? >> that's great. >>

. >> reporter: inspector katie blackwell oversaw the departmnt's training at the time. >> i don't know what kind of improvised position that is. that's not what we trained. >> reporter: cbs legal analyst rikki klieman. does derek chauvin stake the stand now. >> only person who could say that he thought he wasn't done this before was derek chauvin. >> focusing on use of force is one part of the prosecutor's case. the other is proving to the jury chauvin's need on george floyd's neck led to his death. yesterday the emergency room doctor who tried to revive floyd testified he died from lack of oxygen. that is a crucial argument in the prosecution's case. chauvin's defense countered that could be related to the drugs in floyd's system. >> it all comes down to the jury. jamie, thank you very much >>> we have breaking news overnight in the fight over the new voting law in georgia. baseball's all-star game will reportedly be held at denver's coors field, that is the home of the colorado rockies, after the league pulled out of atlanta. ed o'keefe is following this from washington and is both b

[background noises] >> the seat calls katie blackwell. [background noises] >> testimony will be the truth and nothing but the truth? >> i do. >> if you wouldn't mind taking off your mask, state your full name spelled your name. >> katie murray rockwell. >> thank you, your honor. good afternoon. >> how are you employed? >> minneapolis police department. >> what is your current position? [inaudible] >> how long have you been inspector of fifth precinct? >> since january 31 this year. >> what was your immediate rank and assignment. >> commander of training division. >> i'd like you to tell the jury about yourself first, could you tell us about your educational background in law enforcement? >> my two-year associate degree in law enforcement. my four year bachelor degree is in science at st. mary's university. my bachelors is in public safety administration from st. mary's university and undergraduate of northwestern. the most complete two-year course in the u.s. equivalent to masters. >> in addition to be police officer, your the minnesota na

remember, commander now inspector katie blackwell who was in charge of all training looked at this and said i don't even know what this is the i don't know what this modification is. this is and how they train. these are the rules. lieutenant marcil looked at this and he said without equivocation, not an mpd train tactic. it is not. we don't train our people to do this. you can present 1000 hypothetical situations pick you can talk about what didn't happen. all day long into next week, but when you talk about what did happen on that day at that time, that's what they said, use of force and reasonable. supervisor sergeant fluker, the force should end it right after mr. floyd was on the ground. his supervisor said that. lieutenant zimmerman, the oldest serving, i should say the most years of service on the minneapolis police department, longest-serving, longest-serving member of the department, what did he say? he looked at this pic he said this was totally unnecessary. totally unnecessary of use of deadly force. not reasonable. only reasonable force is authorized. sergeant stiger, exper

katie fang, our msnbc legal contributor. paul butler, an msnbc legal contributor, and glenn kirschner and i want each of you to talk about this case, the prosecutors, paul, jerry blackwell, matthew frank, aaron eldridge, won a very rare victory here on behalf of the floyd family, your thoughts on this prosecution and the outcome? >> 45 witnesses, three weeks of testimony, a victory decades, centuries in the make. it was the state versus derek chauvin, the police and legal system were not on trial but because black people have been denied due process and equal protection of law for so long, trials can actually serve as a rough measure of progress. joy, i think given the evidence presented by the prosecution, if there had not been a conviction, there would be legitimate questions about when a police officer could ever be brought to justice for killing a black man. but fewer than ten officers have been convicted of murder in the last 15 years. if this is the beginning of holding police officers accountable, it's long past time. but it's still a really good day for equal justice under the law. >> i think that's a really good point because the other thing that seemed to be o