we are about 40 or 50 years behind in doing the research and kecking the dots that need to be connected to find answers to help that 20%. and if we did that and could really clear up this mystery, and it is a mystery, it's a mystery to everyone, it's a mystery to the professionals and don't let them tell you otherwise. if we could clear up this mystery, it would go a long way, i think new york helping veterans unemployment by taking away this aura of uncertainty of people, you know, having traumatic brain injury or post-traumatic stress doing things we don't want them to do. >> how much improvement do you, both of you, think there has been in terms of removing the stigma? because it's certainly still there. >> it's still there. and i don't think -- i think you're going to have to stay on this forever. this is a society -- this is society's problem. we take your young men and women. you don't like talking about suicide. we concentrate on military suicide every year. i had 160, 170 active component army soldiers in the four years i was vice commit suicide every year. 38,000 americans comm