well, kershner, ithink the us and — that? well, kershner, ithink the us and china _ that?us and china are - that? well, kershner, ithink the us and china are locked l that? well, kershner, ithink. the us and china are locked in what the experts call a security dilemma, in which each side is absolutely convinced they are merely responding to they are merely responding to the provocation of the other side. of course it is more competitive than that. the fact that they find so much difficulty in talking to each other, the traditional amount of mistrust between them, those are major risk factors. i know president biden. i have spent a lot of time in meetings where president xijinping, i am absolutely confident that neither one of them wants conflict, once risk, once more, but was don't happen only because leaders want them, they often have happened historically because leaders have stumbled into them, and i think this mindset that oh, its all yourfault, is think this mindset that oh, its all your fault, is driving it's all your fault, is driving real risk in the region. that w

back with us once again is gregg kershner, msnbc lega analyst to his experience we are lucky to have,here so glenn, to be arrested in ne york on tuesday, donald trum enough to be in new york o tuesday and you would have t actually be indicted by this grand jury and by that the a i manhattan. as doing those things were t happen, what would we see next >> so, we would see donald trump walk into court for hi arraignment which is when th judge will put the defendant o notice of the charges agains which he will have to defend i the future and then really, the onl remaining question for the judge to decide is what should be done with donald trum pending trial? should he be released on his own for cognizance us? could he be travel restricted? and the judge will perhaps hav to discuss this recent post by donald trump to talk about whether there is any dange that his inflammatory rhetoric poses and perhaps give him som restrictions with regards to his speech or his post by garrett, let me add tha judges are loath to engage i what is called prior restraint on speech. so gag orders are few and f

joining us now, glenn kershner, former federal crown prosecutor and host of the justice matters podcast. then, great to see. what do you make of this news, and doesn't seem the manhattan investigation is escalating, and if so, to what? >> yes, jonathan, the kellyanne conway plea piece is really interesting and potentially really important as a piece of evidence that provides some additional support to the notion that there was a campaign finance conspiracy going on between michael cohen and donald trump, because if you recall michael cohen paid off stormy daniels $130, 000, really to very deeply damaging information about donald trump, hide that from the american voters. and we now know that when he, michael cohen, called donald trump to say, in a very real sense, boss, the climbers complete, apparently he didn't get to talk too long, trumpet kellyanne conway called him back, and what did she say? quote, i will pass on the good news. what she was saying was, she was going to pass on the news from michael cohen to donald trump, that mission accomplished. stormy daniels has been silenced.

so, joining me now is glen kershner, former federal prosecutor msnbc legal analyst and th host of the justice matter podcast, glenn, my friends, so good to see you thi morning. trump's lawyers are taking the position, though, that thi indictment is on shaky legal footing for a variety of reasons. do they have a point or is thi just posturing >> you know, katie, in my 30 years the prosecutor, i neve had a defense attorney take th position that yeah, this is strong indictment against my client, and it looks like yo got him. that is not what we hear fro defense teams. they are tipping their pr spin this case has been investigate for a very long time there have been lots of fals starts, but it looks like it i finally coming together. i think we can conclude that because when we ar investigating a case in th grand jury, we wait until th very end to indict, excuse me, to invite the target of th investigation to testify some people might ask, well, why only indict? why not subpoena , while turkey is the person w are intending to indict. the target has a fifth amendment right against self inc

tonight's show, -- david cay johnston, professo and distinguished lecturer a -- college of law gun kershner, former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst. great to have you all here wit us glenn, i'll start with you first, let me get your reactio to this news that we got today about tomorrow's grandeu essential. michael cohen, standing as a rebuttal witness for bob costello, who's also - former lawyer. how do you see that playing out? what's at play here? >> you know, it doesn' surprise me that they may be inviting michael cohen back to shed some light on whatever it is bob costello says the reporting is that one poin in time, when michael cohen wa thinking about basically flipping, breaking away from donald trump, beginning to tel the truth about his own crimes and the crimes of donald trump bob stella was dispatched to try to keep michael cohen back in the fold. i tell, you if i was a prosecutor, and i got to dig into a guy like bob costello i the grand jury, boy, and have whole lot of fun doing people may not know that often prosecutors will grand jur cases exhaustively what do i me

he designs any affair and says he did nothing wrong joining me now, glenn kershner former federal prosecutorc legal analyst and th host of the justice matter podcast. glenn, my friend, had to hav you on the day look, it was always just a matter of time before justic would come for donald trump. with regard to this particular indictment, what charges could we expect to see >> yeah, good morning, katie it's nice to see some movement on the justice front it is a bit of a fools erran to predict with the grand jury might have decided to indict donald trump for, but let it b a little foolish of learning and take a crack at it we have heard a lot about th charge of falsifying busines records now, that is a misdemeanor crime in new york. unless you are falsifying thos business records in further -- furtherance of other crimes, t facilitate them, or to cover o other crimes i would be really surprised if what we see next week, assumin he is indicted and the indictment is unsealed, i woul be really surprised if all w saw was a misdemeano falsifying business record charge i suspect we are going to se pr