we talk to ira glass, robert krulwich, jad, kurt anderson and karen brooks hopkins. >> it's a time when, unlike when rather was the king of television and the rest, audiences have been fracturing and getting smaller and smaller over the last 20 years in media, in general. so, on the one hand, a radio show, a very successful radio show that has a mall or 2 million people listening, 25 years ago, that would be a piddling little audience. today, that's as big as a successful television show. so in addition to all the quality and this smart audience that's now defines themselves because they listen to american life or radiolab or whatever, that is part of their self-definition, it now feels in the culture, generally, i think, like this is the big leagues, because what used to be the big leagues have shrunken a lot. so now we're kind of on not only in audience terms at an equivalent place, but public radio and everybody in it, sometimes they succeed, sometimes they fail, but they are all trying to make stuff that they think is great and they think their audience will think is great without a