. >> kwasi kwasi. >> kwasi kwasi. >> do you not accept that's what they all do. >> successive to thiscessive labour and conservative governments through expensive energy, have taken out hundreds of thousands of well—paid manufacturing jobs. >> so i agree that the cost of energy is too high. where i disagree with you is that i don't think there's a market based solution. if you look at germany, if you look at the us, if you look at china , they all if you look at china, they all talk. the chinese produce this stuff at a great loss. i think that's. that's not commercial. >> i get that. given where we are today, given we just got the scunthorpe site producing primary steel . primary steel. >> that's it, that's it. >> that's it, that's it. >> yes. everything else is gone . >> yes. everything else is gone. whichever way you cut this, it is a vital strategic. so we need to. >> we need. i'm afraid the government has to use uk plc money balance sheet to protect the industry . because we've the industry. because we've looked at this and give it to the chinese. no , we don't have the chinese. n

. >> kwasi and over kwasi kwarteng when you were in government, we said, no, you obviously you put itlong grass. >> no, no. so you could have responded to the hsi report, but you didn't. >> as a constituency mp, i was lobbied on this regularly. sure. and i held the line. i said, we can't afford to pay. we had the same line as the prime minister used that. 90% of them knew. i mean, this was an act that was published in 95. i know the act was passed in 95, and that was that was very clear. >> no one's disputing the 95. no, no, no, no it's not no 95 moving into the slow taper. there's no accusation that that was mal administration. the problem is when the coalition government came in, your government came in, your government with the liberals came in. what they did is they accelerated it. they doubled up the speed, and it was the doubung the speed, and it was the doubling up of the speed that has left people saying, well, i planned what you told me originally and i couldn't then plan for later. >> you know, you're very sophisticated argument. i accept that you're some of your points, but

joined in the studio by kwasi kwarteng, former chancellor and matthew torbitt former labour party adviser. just to quickly cut in with you guys before i come back to kane here, kwasi, basically you filled the country up with millions of people. the impact is we just have to build loads of houses. >> so this has been an issue for 25 years, but much worse. >> in the last 14, i'd say. >> in the last 14, i'd say. >> i'd say no, actually, i'd say it's been. well, look at the numbers. well, look, not just the immigration. >> let far more people in than anybody else might have done, but the issue live somewhere. >> the issue is the house building and we haven't been housebuilding. that's the issue. that's the issue. >> so it's not just about how could you when you were projecting for tens of thousands a year net to build, how could you build houses for millions? >> so that was an issue. but of course, you will remember that when we had lots of immigration from the eu in the in the noughfies from the eu in the in the noughties with under tony blair, and that was an issue as well. and what's happened is whether we like it or not. and i know you've campaigned, you've spent y