l. ron hubbard. really the church has had only two people in charge for all these years. >> right. >> who, from your perspective, has been a greater influence over the church and the issues that you have with the church over the years? was it hubbard or was it miscavige? did hubbard, essentially plant the seed that has now fully flowered, or did miscavige really take an organization that was kind of a little odd and weird to contemplate from the outside in a more problematic direction? >> i think it was baked in from the start with hubbard. the idea of fair game is a --. >> it's a hubbard concept. >> right. and i think, you know, the other thing that was a hubbard concept, and this is quite clear. and we have testimony from his second wife --. >> yeah. >> -- in the film where he started the religion as kind of a tax scam. >> yeah. >> you know, it was like if you're a religion, no one's going to tax you. wouldn't that be great? i don't have to give any of my money to the government. >> right. >> now i

l. ron hubbard. it's also thought by some that if l. ron hubbard comes back and is expected to he will be able to find it. every scientology office has an office for him. several facilities are homes for him. there is you know a novel on the bedside table table is set for one. his slippers are by the shower. but the interlocking circles someone very cleverly analyzed where that came from. he used to smoke kool cigarettes cigarettes, it looks exactly like the circles on the kool cigarettes. i wonder if that was the inspiration posner was l. ron hubbard a true believer? >> guest: i believe he was. i know many people think of him as a con man and a fraud but if he had been come at some point he would've taken the money and run. he never did. he spent his whole life and especially the latter part of his life when he came upon the emea. much of his day was spent by himself going trying to explore the inner recesses of his mind which was a very peculiar mind. probably no mind has been as thoroughly explored in history as a that of l. ron hubba