the coroner said that when the building, lakanal house, coroner said that when the building, la ka naling refurbished, actually the contractor breached the fire safety. the entire point about these tower blocks is you are supposed to be safe from fire, even if fire has started in one flat, it will not split because there will be compartmentalisation, and with la ka nal there will be compartmentalisation, and with lakanal house, the bleached —— the berdych that compartmentalisation, when fire started its spread, there was not enough supervision of the contractors, and once the fire was spreading the fire brigade, instead of urging people to flee, said stay there because the fire would be contained. there were so many lessons to be learned from the lakanal lessons to be learned from the la ka nal house lessons to be learned from the lakanal house fire. it seems to me that this is the scene that has happened again, not least that sprinklers should be put in these tower blocks, because when there are sprinklers people do not die from a fire in their own flat and that stops it from spreadin

when something like lakanal house happens, they are all eager to go on television saying "lessons willlearned, our thoughts are with the families" and so on, but then nothing happens. it may be that the horror at grenfell tower will bring real change but it will be a monumental task. and in the meantime the company that did the refurbishment work, rydon, says that it met all regulations and now welcomes the public inquiry. david shukman, bbc news. with me is kurt barling, who's a former special correspondent for bbc london, who did an investigation into the lakanal house flat fire in camberwell injuly 2009 — in which six people died. he thinks that if the recommendations of the coroner in that case had been acted on, then it's possible that the scale of the tragedy at the grenfell tower fire might have resulted in fewer people losing their lives. kurt is now a professor ofjournalism at middlesex university, london. a fire that killed six people with firefighters coming out saying that they had never seen anything like what they had seen in that fire. it was nowhere near as catastrophic

we did have it for lakanal house. was a recommendation to all landlords that automatic sprinkler fire protection should be considered where the high rise building was of a similar design to lakanal, which had a particular design. the group recommended to successive ministers that we may need to change the regulations. the first thing was to have a review of those regulations which were later reviewed 11 years ago. and are now in need of review badly and we are pressing ministers to review it. one of the ministers did agree to meet the group prior to the election that it had to be cancelled on tour after. and then he lost his seat, didn't he? yes. -- to be cancelled until after. the bill would now proceed. because all we wa nt would now proceed. because all we want is to have that review. if you have the review you can bring up these issues. that is what the group was trying to achieve. these issues. that is what the group was trying to achievelj these issues. that is what the group was trying to achieve. i want to tal

when something like lakanal house happens, they are all eager to go on television saying "lessons willen nothing happens. it may be that the horror at grenfell tower will bring real change but it will be a monumental task. and in the meantime the company that did the refurbishment work, rydon, says that it met all regulations and now welcomes the public inquiry. david shukman, bbc news. this is a chartered surveyor who specialises in fire protection and has been investigating similarfire incidents. thank you forjoining us. you have anticipated event like this. yes, i have. basically all the signs were there from around the world. there have been fires in paris, in the middle east, and in 2014 there was a fire in melbourne, australia, this type of cladding. and they all have in common, do they? they do, they turn into flaming torches. 0ne they? they do, they turn into flaming torches. one of the buildings was actually called the torch. why has such a material been permissible? i have no idea. in 2014 and the bsi annual conference... what is that? the british standards institute, they se

, has happened in lakanal house, has happened in lakanal house, has happened in grenfell tower is, it must never happen again. the london tower block engulfed by fire — at least six people have been killed but the death toll is expected to rise. the blaze broke outjust before iam this morning when most were asleep. eyewitnesses say they saw people trapped in theirflats — is shouting from their windows — trying to throw their children to safety. it was so dark, there was so much smoke in theirfield it was so dark, there was so much smoke in their field stop it was so dark, there was so much smoke in theirfield stop people we re smoke in theirfield stop people were trying to run down the stairs. there was no sound of alarm or bells at all. mothers have lost children, firefighters have come out and endurance that we don't know if they are going to come out safe. the tower is still burning 13 hours later — firefighters are still inside searching for survivors. the mayor of london says many people are unaccounted for. my my thoughts and prayers, as i'm sure those of the entire count

the cladding at lakanal house in south london was judged to have intensified a blaze eight years ago.was hoped back then that out of this tragedy would come a turning point, leading to safer the conditions in all tower blocks. but promised reforms never happened and the lawyer who represented the victims‘ families says that this time the authorities must respond, and quickly. we don't want the same situation as in lakanal house, where things dragged on and on and on and then itjust fell off the public agenda and then the public enquiry didn't happen. it was only an inquest and then nobody listened. this time the government must listen, and maybe, as others have said, maybe heads need to roll too. tonight in north london, a tower block, fitted with cladding by the same company, rydon, that worked on grenfell tower. it said again today that it followed every building regulation. even so, people here are worried. we don't know what the cladding is made of, but everybody now is concerned and very paranoid since what's happened at grenfell tower. we're worried about what is going to happen

. —— lakanal house.gulations, the subcontractor, harley facades, not aware of any link between the cladding and the fire at this time. what about safety procedures? brought up yesterday, a couple of real concerns about the alarm system fitted. a new alarm system was fitted last year under the refit, but people we have spoken with say they did not hear an alarm, it did not get them out of bed, they we re it did not get them out of bed, they were woken up by smoke alarms in neighbouring flats. the evacuation procedure, people being told through notices in the building that if the fire is not directly inside your flat, stay inside. that is common advice for high—rise blocks across the uk at the moment. that may be looked into. a sprinkler - as looked into. a sprinkler system as well, after the earlier fire looked into. a sprinkler system as well, after the earlierfire in lacquer mulhouse, it was said that perhaps that should be considered to install them in new house —— old houses. if it had been newer, it

the cladding at lakanal house in south london was judged to have intensified a blaze eight years ago.e a turning point, leading to safer the conditions in all tower blocks. but promised reforms never happened and the lawyer who represented the victims‘ families says that this time the authorities must respond, and quickly. we don't want the same situation as in lakanal house, where things dragged on and on and on and then itjust fell off the public agenda and then the public enquiry didn't happen. it was only an inquest and then nobody listened. this time the government must listen, and maybe, as others have said, maybe heads need to roll too. tonight in north london, a tower block, fitted with cladding by the same company, rydon, that worked on grenfell tower. it said again today that it followed every building regulation. even so, people here are worried. we don't know what the cladding is made of, but everybody now is concerned and very paranoid since what's happened at grenfell tower. we're worried about what is going to happen to us as well. last night i couldn't sleep very well.

the cladding at lakanal house in south london was judged to have intensified a blaze eight years ago.ng to safer the conditions in all tower blocks. but promised reforms never happened and the lawyer who represented the victims‘ families says that this time the authorities must respond, and quickly. we don't want the same situation as in lakanal house, where things dragged on and on and on and then itjust fell off the public agenda and then the public enquiry didn't happen. it was only an inquest and then nobody listened. this time the government must listen, and maybe, as others have said, maybe heads need to roll too. tonight in north london, a tower block, fitted with cladding by the same company, rydon, that worked on grenfell tower. it said again today that it followed every building regulation. even so, people here are worried. we don't know what the cladding is made of, but everybody now is concerned and very paranoid since what's happened at grenfell tower. we're worried about what is going to happen to us as well. last night i couldn't sleep very well. i'm very shocked with m

the fire in lakanal house in camberwell.be installed in all high—rise flats, but she only encourage that, it's to not become law. the government sent a very weak letter to local authorities, said we had done that, and no sprinklers were installed. in the wake of the grenfell tower fire, i expect they will be. i am surprised to see the telegraph is focusing on the figure here, whether it is £600 million or less, there are hundreds of high—rise flats and tens of thousands of people around the country living in circumstances where there are do not know who are potential death traps and future infernos. i think all of that is, at the moment, far more important than whatever the bill will be down the line. this isjust whatever the bill will be down the line. this is just the whatever the bill will be down the line. this isjust the figure for high—rise blocks. and then potentially it will also have to be paid for other public buildings. yes, hospitals and schools, and the telegraph has the rather unnerving paragraph that plans to

after an inquest which looked at so much evidence over 11 weeks in 2013 in lakanal house, evidence overwill get to the problem of what the problem is with these tower blocks and keeping people safe. there has been a report in plan in government to look at the safety issues, to look at where the sprinklers should be put in place, to look at how when a fire takes place, it should be contained. why hasn't this moved on, why haven't we seen developments? there are lots of people in the fire safety business who say that the department of communities and the government have dragged theirfeet. it communities and the government have dragged their feet. it has to be said, four years on from a really important inquest into a really tragic fire in which six people lost their lives, the same questions being asked — people are right to ask why nothing has been done substantially to ask why nothing has been done su bsta ntially to prevent ask why nothing has been done substantially to prevent this happening again. you see, we have all seen, pictures of the fire yesterday. we have seen how quickly the

in the lakanal house enquiry.hose who were affected had appropriate legal representation, and the government did fund that legal representation to enable them to have the strength of voice they neededin have the strength of voice they needed in that enquiry. 0f have the strength of voice they needed in that enquiry. of course, as she will be aware, how the enquiry is conducted, and the witnesses who are called and the representations that will be received, there will be an element of thejudge deciding received, there will be an element of the judge deciding how he wants to conduct that enquiry. but for those who require legal representation, we will be funding that by the government, and i have not set any limits in relation to the types of body or the individuals who that will be. studio: coverage of this continues on bbc parliament. we will just of this continues on bbc parliament. we willjust break awayjust of this continues on bbc parliament. we will just break away just to of this continues on bbc parliament.

recommendations from four years ago following this fire years ago following this fatal fire at lakanal housee coroner in 2013 in lakanal house said those deaths were avoidable, that there should have been sprinklers, that there should have been change in the fire instructions, that there should be greater supervision of contracts and fire inspection. the coroner did not, as i understand it, say there should be sprinklers in every one of these types of properties. but what is important is that because of what underpins what she was saying, was a necessity of making sure that people living in similar blocks are able to feel reassured about their safety. here in kensington the most senior official in the local authority has resigned. this was welcomed at westminster but the council was criticised for a slow response to the crisis. the prime minister wants to see swift recommendations from the forthcoming public enquiry, but grenfell tower appears to be becoming something of a political symbol of inequality and a new consensus seems to be emerging here in the house of commons that more priority

that review was ordered after the fatal lakanal house fire in 2009, a multi—storey block in which sixin the subsequent inquest said that the government should encourage providers of high rise housing to consider retrofitting sprinkler systems. there was none in grenfell, currently there are 4,000 tower blocks in the uk that don't have sprinklers. chris cook looks now at the possible part the building's cladding may have played in the fire's spread. one of the most important questions to answer quickly is, how many other buildings are at risk from fires of the sort that devastated the grenfell tower. right now, that's a very hard question to answer. to really understand the tragedy that unfolded this week in kensington, it may help to appreciate a success story from camden. back in 2012, there was a major fire on the 17th floor of the building behind me. a pensioner‘s flat was completely destroyed. but the fire didn't spread. it was contained by the walls and floors and the external features of the building. so the fire brigade were able to get here and stop it from getting into any ot

to a public safety bill to implement the recommendations of the 2013 inquiry into the fire at lakanal housee that removed the requirement to install sprinklers in new school buildings. it could still do so and it would do so with our support additional to any recommendation that come from the grenfell tower inquiry. any recommendation that come from the grenfell tower inquirylj any recommendation that come from the grenfell tower inquiry. i thank the grenfell tower inquiry. i thank the right honourable gentleman for giving way and what he said about sprinkler systems for high rise flats. we have 116 blocks of high rise flats in my city of leeds, 26 of which are in my constituency. at the moment, only eight and those are the moment, only eight and those are the sheltered acomedations will have sprinklers. it will cost £30 million for sprinklers in all of those flats. will the right honourable gentleman join with me flats. will the right honourable gentlemanjoin with me in ushlging the government to provide the money for all local authorities to put sprinklers into those high rises? i absolut

in 2009, six people died at lakanal house in london. the report author was sir kenneth knight.ent to join a team to look at the early lessons to be learned from the grenfell tower disaster. we asked if the tests being carried out go further than the current regulations. in answer to your question, it is being tested, what is the current building regulations in place. and the tests would imply that it wouldn't meet the current building regulations, and that is the crucial point. arnold has been a fire safety expert for 20 years. he says cladding currently only has to withstand flame tests from the front. but he says this is simply not enough. make the tests more robust. test everything, test every angle, then you will know it works. today, entire families have been hauling their possessions away from four tower blocks. safety measures are being put in place. many were too upset to speak about it. around 200 people, including this man, are refusing to leave the blocks. are you planning to stay? staying! have you been told to leave today? michelle urquart and her 87—year—old fathe

when something like lakanal house happens, they are all eager to go on television saying "lessons will happens. it may be that the horror at grenfell tower will bring real change but it will be a monumental task. and in the meantime the company that did the refurbishment work, rydon, says that it met all regulations and now welcomes the public inquiry. david shukman, bbc news. as we've heard, both theresa may and jeremy corbyn were here today. in parliament, mps have been questioning nick hurd, the government minister responsible for the fire service. he described the grenfell tower fire as a "national tragedy". the labour mp david lammy, who's friend in the tower block is still missing, has called for a criminal investigation. in an emergency, who's in charge? the prime minister met firefighters who have given everything at grenfell, but none of the families that have lost everything they had. she met volunteers on the ground, but returning to number 10, the focus today, getting help to those that need it. the government stands ready to provide every assistance necessary to the emerge

years ago following this fire at lakanal house in south london.deaths were avoidable, that there should have been sprinklers, that there should have been changing the fire instructions, that there should be greater supervision of contracts and fire inspection. the coroner did not, asi fire inspection. the coroner did not, as i understand it, say there should be sprinklers in every one of these types of properties. but what is important is that because of what underpins what she was saying was a necessity of making sure that people living in similar blocks are able to feel reassured about their safety. here in kensington the most senior official in the local authority has resigned. this was welcomed at westminster by the council —— while the council was criticised for a slow response to the crisis. the prime minister wants to see swift recommendations from the forthcoming public enquiry, but grenfell tower appears to be becoming something of appears to be becoming something of a political symbol of inequality and a political symbol of inequality an

and there are plenty of expert voices today saying that the lessons of what happened here at lakanal housee fire in west london last night, this morning, has demonstrated that they are still at risk in their own homes. these fires shouldn't be happening in 21st century london. we've got the ability to stop them from happening, and when fires to break out, to restrict them to small areas of flats or buildings. one key question in the spotlight today is about the design of tower blocks and how they're meant to keep people safe in case a fire breaks out. now normally, a fire hose can only reach about 15 metres. grenfell tower stands 67 metres high. in america, they rely on what's called "active safety". sprinklers fight fires in every room, but that can be expensive. the basic principle here, until recently, has been passive safety, designing the building to confine any blaze to a single room. clearly, that's failed. investigators will want to know why. another focus will be on the cladding fitted to the outside of the building, panels to improve insulation and the look of older buildings lik

what happened in lakanal house, after it had been refurbished, the refurbishment had compromised the ity around what should be done about external cladding and what should be done about tower blocks being fire proved inside properly and a fire should not be spreading beyond the flat where it breaks out. people should be able to be evacuated and wait for the fire brigade to do with the incident. it is difficult to see why this has happened and there is not many excuses for it. this man lives in the block opposite and hasn't been able to contact a friend who lives in grunfeld able to contact a friend who lives in gru nfeld tower. able to contact a friend who lives in grunfeld tower. if you move to the right, you can see where the smoke is about now. that is where she used to live. while it is unclear why this fire happened, it is very clear that safeguards failed. there has been plenty of finger—pointing,... let's speak now to graham fieldhouse, a consultant fire safety expert for social housing and was also in the london fire brigade high rise building fire group. why'd you think lesso

architectural expert witness advising the tenants and the families of the people who were killed in the lakanal house. the other person who acted with me was rodney king. sorry to cut in there. when you talked about the basic rule is not being applied, whose responsibility was that to make sure the buildings we re was that to make sure the buildings were safe ? was that to make sure the buildings were safe? in the case of lacanal it was the london borough of southwark. they didn't do it. no submission was made over building regulations. this year, they were fined, they were prosecuted by the london fire brigade and fine, i think, it was £570,000. the guilty councillors and officers didn't pay that. that was added to the rent bill of the te na nts added to the rent bill of the tenants and people's council tax. so those who should have taken responsibility didn't do so, you're saying. sam, cani responsibility didn't do so, you're saying. sam, can i ask you... they had acted... i'm sorry to speak over you. we have heard in the last three days many people saying we don't need another review. we don't nee

and there are plenty of expert voices today saying that the lessons of what happened here at lakanal housee at risk in their own homes. the fire in west london last night, this morning, has demonstrated that they are still at risk in their own homes. these fires shouldn't be happening in 21st century london. we've got the ability to stop them from happening, and when fires to break out, to restrict them to small areas of flats or buildings. one key question in the spotlight today is about the design of tower blocks and how they're meant to keep people safe in case a fire breaks out. now normally, a fire hose can only reach about 15 metres. grenfell tower stands 67 metres high. in america, they rely on what's called "active safety". sprinklers fight fires in every room, but that can be expensive. the basic principle here, until recently, has been passive safety, designing the building to confine any blaze to a single room. clearly, that's failed. investigators will want to know why. another focus will be on the cladding fitted to the outside of the building, panels to improve insulation and

and there are plenty of expert voices today saying that the lessons of what happened here at lakanal housen last night, this morning, as demonstrated that they are still at risk in their own homes. these fires shouldn't be happening in 21st—century london. we've got the ability to stop them from happening, and when fires do break out, to restrict them to small areas of flats or buildings. one key question in the spotlight today is about the design of tower blocks, and how they are meant to keep people safe in case a fire breaks out. normally, a fire hose can only reach about 15 metres. grenfell tower stands 67 metres high. in america, they rely on what is called "active safety". sprinklers fight fires in every room, but that can be expensive. the basic principle here, until recently, has been passive safety, designing the building to confine any blaze to a single room. clearly, that has failed. investigators will want to know why. another focus will be on the cladding fitted to the outside of the building, panels to improve insulation and the look of older buildings like grenfell tower. bu

at lakanal house in 2009, one of the issues was the spread of fire, the potential for service spreadnts that we want to pick up on. let us talk about the cladding. you are saying, from the pictures you have looked at, that is the reason for the fire going up the side of the building. there will be people saying if that is the case why is it even use? certainly we would want to know what cladding was used, what specification for the cladding was given. it has got to have travelled up given. it has got to have travelled up something and the cladding was there, so it seems the cladding has been the cause of the fire spreading. there has been questions about sprinkler systems, but whether that would have prevented the fire spreading at the side of the building, on the external part of the building. there is questions about the stay put policy and people's understanding of that. stay put policy is not that you must stay, if you are affected by smoke orfire you must stay, if you are affected by smoke or fire you must get out, but this isa or fire you must get out, but this is a singular st

and there are plenty of expert voices today saying that the lessons of what happened here at lakanal house house demonstrated that people were at risk in their own homes. the fire in west london last night, this morning, as demonstrated that they are still at risk in their own homes. these fires shouldn't be happening in 21st—century london. we've got the ability to stop them from happening, and when fires do break out, to restrict them to small areas of flats or buildings. one key question in the spotlight today is about the design of tower blocks, and how they are meant to keep people safe in case a fire breaks out. normally, a fire hose can only reach about 15 metres. grenfell tower stands 67 metres high. in america, they rely on what is called "active safety". sprinklers fight fires in every room, but that can be expensive. the basic principle here, until recently, has been passive safety, designing the building to confine any blaze to a single room. clearly, that has failed. investigators will want to know why. another focus will be on the cladding fitted to the outside of the buildin

leicester is solicitor sophie khan — who represented one of the families killed in the camberwell lakanal houseand want to know why recommendations made at the time by the coroner haven't been implemented. thank you very much for being with us. what are your thoughts after this terrible tragedy here? the government should have taken into account the rule 43 report that had been prepared by the coroner after thejury verdict. had been prepared by the coroner after the jury verdict. had that been done, it's very unlikely that this would have happened or if there was a fire it wouldn't have been at this level. in terms of recommendations, what in particular should have been done here in kensington that wasn't done? one of them was about having sprinklers in all the tower blocks. that was one of the first and most highlighted issues which could have prevented a lot of loss of life. even though it wouldn't have saved the building it would have given people time to leave the building safely. that basic amendment and that basic change to the tower blocks, i don't believe has been done because clearly i

government of being too slow to act on recommendations from four years ago following this fatal fire at lakanal houseroner in 2013 said that those deaths were avoidable, that there should have been sprinklers, that there should have been change in the fire instructions, that there should be greater supervision of contracts and fire inspection. the coroner did not, as i understand it, say that there should be sprinklers in every one of these types of properties. but what is important is, because what underpinned what she was saying was the necessity of making sure that people living in similar blocks are able to feel reassured about their safety. here in kensington the most senior official in the local authority has resigned. this was welcomed at westminster, while the council was criticised for a slow response to the crisis. the prime minister wants to see swift recommendations from the forthcoming public enquiry, but grenfell tower appears to be becoming something of a political symbol of inequality, and a new consensus seems to be emerging here in the house of commons that more priority should be g

. —— the lakanal house situation in 2009. coroner and say that these would be reviewed as pa rt of say that these would be reviewed as part of a wider review of other approved documents, and of course this was due to happen in 2016—17. we are almost ready for that consultation, but in the light of what has happened, we are obviously going to have to reflect on what that consultation needs to contain. yeah, ijust that consultation needs to contain. yeah, i just want that consultation needs to contain. yeah, ijust want to say that we do recognise that we need to be taking action, that there is going to be a public inquiry, and were going to do everything we can within the departments to assist individuals and also get the answers that everybody wants. , just add something to address a point that the leader of the opposition made which is about the question of housing and housing close to where people live, and i have spoken about this to the leader of the council last night, and i think colleagues who are london mps, in particu

that was the case in lakanal house as well.the cladding is unsafe, there are issues with compartmentalisation, you can see with the fire doors coming and there are fired problems did up the mineral wool means there are other issues with the joints and what have you. there are a series of problems collectively — catastrophic. you. there are a series of problems collectively - catastrophic. in your experience investigating fires around the world, is there a danger that the fundamental structure of these tower blocks might be at fault? no, i don't think so. whether what we are looking at are inherently correctly designed to tower blocks. when they were built they were safe. there has been the passage of time and people have lost their way. it is a form of intellectual corruption. just forgotten how they were meant to be put together. now camden has coming, they have done an audit and are getting it fixed. that is professor arnold dicks from the university of west syd ney arnold dicks from the university of west sydney to talk ther

there was another case in 2009 the lakanal house, and in that case, southwark council were fined forslaughter, quite a new law, only brought in in 2008, and there could be an unlimited fine for any of the organisation is involved. —— organisations involved. they would have to prove that senior managers in organisations were aware of what was going on, so it is harder to get to that stage of proof. in terms of the testing of cladding, what is the latest? 75 buildings in 26 council areas across england, every single sample sent in so far, coming back unsafe. the big question is, what are they testing for? we asked the government again and again yesterday and didn't get a response. we think they are testing the combustibility of the panels. people in the industry say that is one way of looking at it, but to get an idea of how safe the outside of the building is, you need to look at everything — the installation, windows, the way it is fixed. this could be confusing because the test does not get at the overall level of fire safety, so how worthwhile visit? thank you for the moment, jim.

david mentioned lakanal house.sues in lakanal house, it was other alterations. if we just focus on cladding we will miss out on other operations which have affected fire safety within the building. there may be a whole, a thorough audit of every single high—rise building and london fire brigade today has altered the attendance of fire services at calls to those premises, that should happen across the uk immediately. thank you very much. we should mention that the contractor in that discussion involved in the cladding of grenfell tower and in camden but they are not connected to premier inn just to clarify. that's it from me for now — but now let's go over to evan in brussels. hello, from thejustus lipsius building here in brussels. behind me the good folks of the media, excitedly working on their stories from the european council meeting underway here. it's the first time theresa may has met all her counterparts since the election. and to think, that was just two weeks ago. back then, she — we — thought she'd be he