i mean, i would just say that -- well, probably for me, i worked with leo la porte a lot stuff, and i doing a facetime from, i call it the magic room. you know after the apple events, and they take you into the room where they have the new product? and association i had a little headset on and i was doing a face time interview -- >> via cell phone, yes. >> while he was going live on his podcast, and steve jobs walked up to me. >> wow. >> and i just turned the camera right like this and started talking to him, and i thought -- and he talked back to me. and i thought he probably is just curious what i'm doing with his technology. >> sure. >> and there i was live broadcasting with steve jobs, using the technology that he had brought about. and i thought, this is just meta in meta, but it's cool, you know? >> those moments are few and far between. >> yes, they are. >> because not many reporters get steve jobs in front of a camera up close like that. >> much less, his own camera. >> yeah. >> this is also the second or third time that leo la porte has come up in this show, which is fascinat