now we have covered leonard leo on the show before. he is, to my mind, the single most influential private citizen in the country when it comes to america's courts. no one is even a close second. and leo is the center of a sprawling but largely hidden political machine, which is singlemindedly focused on appointing conservative justices to the courts and making sure they stay committed to the conservative project once they are there. now here's the latest reporting on him from the washington post, citing documents that have not been reviewed by nbc news. over a decade ago leonard leo funneled as much as $100,000 to liberty consulting, a firm run by ginni thomas, from which he takes it salary. the payments were facilitated by none other than republican pollster and future campaign manager kellyanne conway. according to the documents reviewed by the post, back in january, 2012, quote, leo instructed kanye conway to bill a nonprofit group e advises and then use that money to pay virginia, ginni thomas. here's our post said he did it. leo t

, conservatives, like leonard leo. one of the most powerful people in conservative legal services. he's the architect of this work. from leo's perspective, here's how the last 50 years played out. listen to that. since the 1970s the court's head majorities of justices that were appointed by republican presidents. the whole time there was never a majority appointed by democratic nominees. yet despite this the court refused to move as far to the raiders activists like leo and -- wanted it to. in some cases quite famously republican appointed justices became bedrock stalwart liberals, like the great justice john paul stevens, somewhat later extent, david souter. in other cases, republican appointees moved back and forth but drifted to the middle on key issues like abortion and gay rights. justices sandra day o'connor and anthony kennedy. and planned parenthood v. casey can came for the court, those two justices, both appointed by reagan, will drop rolled the protections in row. and all of this was, to me like leo it is co

that leo at quite a hand and shaping the supreme court and much of the federal judiciary, that leonard leoa hand in atlantic ginni thomas's pockets at least a decade ago. according to the washington post, leo directed and pollster kelley and conway to pay ginni thomas for unknown work in 2011 and 2012. that reporting which nbc is not a verified is the latest in a running list of tom's family ethics scandals. joining us now are gabe roth, executive director of fix the court and emma brown, washington post investigative reporter, who broke that story about leonard leo directing the secret payment to ginni thomas. >> let me start with you, emily, because you had the breaking news here. there are a lot of questions about this arrangement between leonard leo, kellyanne conway and ginni thomas, what do we know about the judicial education project, a small nonprofit that was making like very little money until the time at which funneled 150,000 -- $100,000 to ginni thomas? >> the judicial education project is the nonprofit that was the source of the $25,000 that leo was saying to go to ginni thom

his business is the court. >> according to "the washington post," in january 2012, leonard leo told conservativellyanne conway to bill the judicial education project nonprofit. leo then instructed conway to give ginni thomas another $25,000, and the documents show he emphasized there should be no mention of ginni thomas in any paperwork. never good when someone tells you not to put something in writing and then puts it in writing. leo told "the post," quote, it is no secret that ginni thomas has a long history of working on issues in the conservative movement. when asked why he wanted to keep ginni thomas' name off the paperwork, leonard leo told "the post," quote, knowing how disrespectful, malicious, and gossipy people can be, i have always tried to protect the privacy of justice thomas and ginni, unquote. apparently the belief that transparency and accountability for the highest court in the land are just gauche and rude. let's bring in joan biskupic and walter schwab. joan, people out there might not realize how huge a role leonard leo has played in so much of what the court has done, includ

leonard leo. it has re-branded.siness alias. and it is a big part of the newly emboldened right-wing movement to tighten voting laws and to make it harder to vote in the first place. now, i wouldn't say that leonard leo was necessarily the third most powerful person in the world. but the degree of power he does have over our politics does not feel like a laughing matter. when we come back, a clamor for justice after a homeless man is killed on a new york subway. but what does justice even look like in this case? that is coming up next. how to grow delicious organic veggies. step one: use miracle-gro performance organics container mix. it's full of nutrient-charged raw materials so it's guaranteed to produce twice as much harvest. and that's it. miracle-gro performance organics. all you need to know to gro...organically. as someone living with type 2 diabetes, i want to keep it real and talk about some risks. with type 2 diabetes you have up to 4 times greater risk of stroke, heart attack, or death. even at your a1c

his business is the court. >> tonight, the washington post is reporting, quote, in january 2012, leonard leoill a nonprofit -- the group called the judicial education project and use the money money to pay virginia ginni thomas, the documents show. leo, an adviser to the judicial education project, and a key figure in a network of nonprofits that has worked to support the nominations of conservative judges, told conway, he wanted her to give ginni thomas another $25, 000, the documents show. he emphasized that the paperwork should have no mention of ginni, of course, conway's firm, the polling company, sent the judicial education project a 25,000 -- no mention of -- judicial education project -- perlytown shock shuns, it listed the purpose as supplement for constitution polling an opinion consulting, the documents show. kellyanne conway then collected that $25,000 from leonard leo's operation, and sent it to clarence thomas's wife. the washington post obtained documents showing that kellyanne conway sent a total of $80,000 to virginia thomas. the sources of that money were never disclosed, c

according to the post reporting, leonard leo advises a network of conservative nonprofits that work toions of conservative judges and in january 2012, leo told republican pollster kellyanne conway to bill the judicial education project. the post says he told conway to then give ginni thomas another $25,000. they say documents show he emphasized the paperwork should have, quote, no mention of ginni, of course. it's unclear exactly what ginni thomas did for conway's polling firm or the judicial education project. thomas has not commented for that report. cnn's senior supreme court analyst has been looking into this, and joan, it comes in the middle of all these questions about ethics inside the supreme court. >> reporter: you know, that's right, john. this is just one more piece of awareness we're all getting about the very secretive world of the supreme court and money surrounding the supreme court. individuals giving money to justices and questions being raised about why and does that actually influence the justices in cases. let's start with what leonard leo has said in response to "t

. >> let's talk about the money, the leonard leo money. the new disclosures it's not even clear he didn't pick those justices that donald trump added to the court, the trump three, without the help of the federalist society. we have all sort of come to think of the federalist society as serving up these justices and they're just getting on the bench. now it's even murkier. >> yeah, it's much murkier. a little hard to pick apart because leonard leo worked for the federalist society and still works on the board, but they had no proceedings through which they adopted or approved any such list. so if they didn't look at it, what's this federalist society list? who did come up with it? i think that's an important question. because if it is a bunch of right-wing billionaires, operating in a back room at the federalist society with leonard leo as their functionary, then that's a really important consideration in evaluating these justices. >> it's hard for me to sort of wrap my mind around the idea that you have potentially billionaires who are es

>> the source of the money paid to ginni thomas according to the arrangement as laid out by leonard leobrief before the supreme court in 2012. that is the same year as these payments. in that brief, it was in shelby v. holder, the landmark voting rights case in which the court struck down a provision that was meant to protect minority voters, thomas agreed with the outcome but said i would have gone further and struck down a broader provisiowhich was the same position taken by judicial education project. it is not as if our reporting shows clarence thomas was swayed in some way by this organization that was apparently had been asked to pay his wife, but the standard for recusal is not showing someone was swayed. it is showing there was a reasonable basis to question the impartiaty of the justice. we spoke to ethics experts who were divided on the question of whether this was a close enough connection with the payments to his wife that i should've required history crusoe. -- required his recusal. >> we got a comment from leonard leo. the work she did hear that not involve anything connec

leonard leo is the money behind this. he is the organizer behind this. he has dark money. we don't still know most of the donors and anytime that this man is brought to light where these activities are brought to light, this is good. i really hope folks at home can just check this guy out into the record that he's put out there, "washington post" has done a lot of reporting, i've done a lot of reporting. had is the man engineering the destruction of our democracy as we know it. >> look, i just think that certainly we can get involved in the personal intrigue. i think at the end of the day, we should all agree to your point that we can have some type of actual code of conduct moving forward. i think, look, i've met harlan crow. he's a wonderful person. i think that we should kind of get away from this assumption that the only time the money corrupts is when it's written by a person who prescribes to right leaning politics, right? i think money corrupts absolutely, and i think we should focus on that. >> we all agree on that. we just happen to have a face for this one and le

, leonard leo is a very powerful man when it comes to the supreme court.a hand and nutley shaping nominees to the court specifically the last three under president trump but even before then through the federalist society. eight the agenda pushed conservative concerns to the forefront of cases the court has had to rule on and has shaped as a result. a lot of the laws we know today in america including this morning easy access to guns. supreme court justices, based on who they are all have perks in terms of book deals we have criticisms and why she did not recuse herself on the land and house deal. but to me that is markedly different then saying we are going to keep jenny thomas was named top this. no space closure and money is going to flow in to her pocketbook into her family. just like the money going to pay for the garden he was guarding for a child, for that private education. this is not healthy for that institution ferguson's overtime but those two together they are sort of --'s applicable getting medical resource that may have had an interest in fr

we did get a comment from leonard leo. the work she did here did not involve anything connected with either the court's business or other legal issues. knowing how disrespectful, malicious, and gossipy people can be, i have always tried to protect justice thomas and ginni thomas. when you take everything we have learned about clarence thomas the past month, the luxury vacations with harlan crow, crow buying thomas' mother's house from the justice and his family, paying the private school tuition of his grandnephew, and now this payment to his wife -- what is the significance of all of this? why should people be concerned about this? >> i think we are in a moment of great scrutiny on the court and on potential conflicts of interest, and the reason that matters is because if people don't have confidence the justices are acting on the basis of law rather than some other influence, the court cannot function and our nation depends on people trusting the court in order for a republic to function in the way it is supposed to. >>

it's a story about leonard leo.to back from up in the script, the amazing painting. if there's any way to put that on the screen right now. but leonard leo is also in that painting. he's notoriously the sort of mastermind behind the entire federal society -- judicial network that vets judges and put some on the court. we have a society about him correcting kellyanne conway, about ten years ago, there he is on the left, right next to shorts guy. him directing kellyanne conway to give ginni thomas $25,000 in payment through a nonprofit he was not on the board of. and he emphasized the paperwork should have no mention of ginni, of course. this nonprofit would go on to pay her fairly under $1,000. none of it mentioning that is to ginni thomas. we don't know if the other payments were for her as well, though they didn't -- this does not seem great. what do you think about that? >> well, i use the word deceit, i use the word cover-up, i would use the word -- it's clear that leonard leo knows that if they saw the light of

we all know that leonard leo spent his career installing concerted justices to the supreme court in an effort to overturn roe v. wade and so much other progress across this country. you may remember mr. leo from recent press reports that have said he asked kellyanne conway and her polling firm to give jenny thomas, quote, another $25,000. he emphasized the paperwork should have no mention of jenny, of course. we know mr. leo has set his sights on our democracy, on our court. he's amassed $1.6 million to do it. this is problematic for us as a country. this is something this committee should be looking at. i want to note an article by "the new york times." in its -- it notes mr. leo's network -- in his campaign to push some of the country's biggest corporation -- >> we are going to leave this hearing at this point. live coverage does continue on c-span.org. house members today are working on republicans' border security bill and unemployment insurance fraud legislation. live now to the house floor here on c-span. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2023] [captioning perfor

in a statement to the post, leonard leo said, in part, it is no secret that ginni thomas has a long historyrvative movement, and part of that work has involved gauging public attitudes and sentiment. the work she did here did not involve anything connected with either the courts business or with other legal issues. we are going to have a lot more on the implications of all of this coming up next. ortfolios for their long-term goals. (other money manager) but you still sell investments that generate high commissions for you, right? (fisher investments) no, we don't sell commission products. we're a fiduciary, obligated to act in our client's best interest. (other money manager) so when do you make more money, only when your clients make more money? (fisher investments) yep. we do better when our clients do better. at fisher investments, we're clearly different. when the davises booked their vrbo vacation home, they didn't know about this view. or the 200-year-old tree in the backyard. or their neighbors down the hill. but one thing they did know is exactly how much they'd pay. because vrbo i

in a statement to the post, leonard leo said, in part, it is no secret that ginni thomas has a long historyhas involved gauging public attitudes and sentiment. the work she did here did not involve anything connected with either the courts business or with other legal issues. we are going to have a lot more on the implications of all of this coming up next. coming up next. what about your neck? it's good to go. before advil. advil dual action fights pain two ways. advil targets pain at the source, acetaminophen blocks pain signals. advil dual action. ♪ (vo)acetaminophen blocks adventure on a deeper level. the subaru forester wilderness. dog tested. dog approved. love. it's what makes subaru, subaru. your heart is the beat of life. if you have heart failure, entrust your heart to entresto. entresto helps improve your heart's ability to pump blood to the body. don't take entresto if pregnant; it can cause harm or death to an unborn baby. don't take entresto with an ace inhibitor or aliskiren, or if you've had angioedema with an ace or arb. the most serious side effects are angioedema, low blo

it's at the lowest ebb in history. >> are you willing to subpoena leonard leo or harlan crow?o subpoena supreme court justices? >> everything is on the table. >> one of the reasons that you are a little ham strung from acting is your colleague dianne feinstein from california is still out sick. she said she's returning this coming week. her office has not confirmed that. senator feinstein has missed dozens of key votes and you are confirming judicial nominees who have a republican backing and questions about her ability to perform her job were being raised years before her recent bout with shingles which we obviously hope she recovers from soon. at what point do the tens of millions of voters currently lacking full representation in the senate from california, at what point will it be questioned for a long time? >> i can tell you that senator feinstein is my friend and my colleague of many years. she's gone through an awful lot. she lost her husband last year and she's had medical issues that are problematic for her at her age at this point. i hope she returns and i hope it's

let's say what leonard leo, how he responded to "the washington post." he said the work guinea did did not involve anything connected with the court's business or other legal issues. knowing how disrespectful malicious and gossipy people can be, i have always tried to protect the privacy of begin any thomas and justice thomas. i know that erica that justice thomas and leonard leo go all the way back to like 1990 when they were both working at the d.c. circuit. justice thomas as a lower court judge then and leonard leo as a law clerk to another judge on that court. they have a deep longstanding friendship. they have always -- they just always have been tight. but as much as that's different from the evolving friendship of harlan crow and as much as the disclosure requirements might have been different, and i'll mention those real quick, you know, with harlan crow he gave gifts to the justice and the justice's family that probably should have been reported in some way. there is a question of whether this money for ginni thomas should have been disclosed. t

so think about how important leonard leo was, that he was the top person to sit down with trump and decidewho might end up in the court. i menged that leo is important, i did interview him a couple of years back. this is at cornell law, where it develop vant, we both graduated from at different times. and we discussed this very powerful perch he had advising trump on that list. >> it was donald trump the candidate, done mcgahn, his general counsel and myself. i had gotten a tip-off that it was his idea so i happened to have a list of -- and at one point he said, so what kind of people would you put on that list. and i said i happen to have. would you like to see it. >> would you like to see it. >> and that is a crowd of lawyers appreciating his process. but that list in his pock was a bunch of names that he was providing on behalf of sort of his project, those groups that i mentioned to tell donald trump, these are names you that could say that we approve it and he did put out that list and later put in people on the court that fit largely with that sort of federalist society type of crede

the post reports that leonard leo the influential founder of the federalist society a key group in thecan effort to make the federal judiciary more conservative, arranged for ginni thomas to be paid at least $80,000 through a nonprofit group he advises. arleo told that group not to record her name writing no mention of jenny, of course. that same year the nonprofit group filed a brief in a landmark voting rights case before the supreme court. clarence thomas already under scrutiny for taking a lavish vacation turn for a brymner gop megadonor know who also part of thomas' mother's house and helped pay for his great-nephew's private school. democrats and some republicans are calling for cleanup at the court. >> the drip, drip, drip of these destructive disclosures is going to destroy the united states supreme court. >> devin: in a statement, leonard leo said that ginni thomas' work was even in value and any that her work did not involve anything connected with the court's businesses. that promises when asked for comment from the post did not respond. david? >> david: terry moran, thank y

the post reports that leonard leo, the influential founder of the federalist society, a key group in the republican effort to make the federal judiciary more conservative arranged for ginny thomas to be paid $80,000 through a nonprofit group that he advises. leo told that group not to record her name writing no mention of ginny, of course. the same year the nonprofit filed an amicus. clarence thomas already under scrutiny for taking lavish vacations. democrats and some republicans are calling for a cleanup at the court. >> the drip, drip, drip of the these destructive disclosures will destroy the united states supreme court. >> in a statement to "the washington post," leonard leo said that ginny's work was invaluable and her work did not involve anything connected with the court's businesses. the thomass when asked for comment by the post did not respond. david? >> terry moran who has covered the court for years. thank you. we turn to the economy. a better than expected jobs report today. 253,000 jobs added in april. unemployment now falling to 3.4% in this country. match ago 54-year

you have got leonard leo, who is sort of the sven golly svangali -- paying for his mother's home, payingor his devoto son and his grand nephew tuition. giving these random gifts like a 19,000 dollar bible that used to belong to frederick douglass. if this were any other government official, if clarence thomas worked for any place within the government other than the supreme court, this would be utterly forbidden, he'd be out of a job. and i wouldn't be surprised if there was talk about a criminal investigation as well. >> so, ian, you have today as these reports were coming out, lies of justice thomas and ginni thomas. they put out statements. they said, nothing to see here. there's nothing wrong with this. how is this -- how are regular folks, who are watching this, seeing and reading what is happening. how are they supposed to continue to have faith in the supreme court given what you just described? you know, i used to work at the white house, and this would definitely be a no no. he there. >> yes, it is a neat trick, the supreme court doesn't have an ethics code and therefore clarenc

i have to ask you, dahlia, the idea leonard leo, the head of the federalist society, is effectively askingonly affiliated with to make secret payments to ginni thomas via kellyanne conway smacks the worst corruption that we have in this country. how do you read the sort of underground pipeline of cash being funneled not just to clarence thomas but to ginni thomas? >> i mean, alex, i have to say i thought i was incapable of shock and i thought this morning's revelations about the school tuition were pretty shocking and then to get this blockbuster reporting from "the washington post" that puts the lie to the notion that leonard leo and the federalist society and the groups he's involved with are just benign debating societies, that they're just friends with the thomass, i mean this is kind of the whole enchilada splayed out for all of us to see. and as you say it's not just he's say no mention of ginni on the paperwork, again an admission he knows that would be wrong, but to have this organization that's funneling money through kelly conway through ginni thomas and then this organization is

according to "the washington post" while arranging this payment, leonard leo instructed kellyanne conwayinny". leo said they were just protecting the privacy of thomas and mrs. thomas. conway condemned "the washington post" for her report. this doesn't make any sense to me. >> two things on that, anderson -- you're exactly right, the highest court in the land should have equally high standards for ethics. i don't see how that is something that anybody would challenge and question. and then as to leonard leo, let's remind our audience who this is. he is a man who is a very dear friend of justice thomas, but he's also someone who has had such a strong hand in reshaping the federal bench. he has -- he is a man with a very strong agenda to make the courts much more conservative. he was very involved with the appointment of all three of donald trump's choices for the supreme court, and frankly he has had a hand in every republican appointee who's now sitting on that supreme court because of his role with the federalist society and just being so moneyed and networked in with conservative backe

the washington post reports conservative judicial activist leonard leo arranged for clarence thomas's paid at least $80,000 dollars for consulting work over a decade ago. without mentioning her name. month later, the nonprofit filed an amicus brief in shelby county v. holder, in which thomas cast the deciding vote in a 5-to-4 ruling that gutted the voting rights act of 1965. despite these revelations, the supreme court chief justice john roberts has refused because to look into ethics rules for justices. then we have the case of his wife adding over $10 million for being a headhunter for elite firms. these law firms often have cases before the supreme court. we are joined by dahlia lithwick, who covers the courts and the law for slate and hosts the podcast “amicus.” her recent book is titled: "lady justice: women, the law, and the battle to save america." she is joining us from seattle. thank you for joining us again democracy now! respond to this avalanche of information, starting with justice thomas, but not ending with him. dahlia: it is such an amazing story, and it is really in s

this time, it has to do with another one of his friends, leonard leo, who happens to be the head of theist society. leo is the architect of the current conservative supreme court and the current federal bench. according to "the washington post," leo arranged for ginni thomas to get paid tens of thousands of dollars for consulting work over a ten-year period. the post reviewed documents that showed that leo instructed republican pollster kellyanne conway, you remember her as trump's 2016 campaign manager, and alternative facts lady, to bill a nonprofit group he advises and use that money to pay ginni thomas. the same year that nonprofit, the judicial education project, filed a brief to the supreme court in a landmark voting rights case. what they uncovered next was even more disturbing. according to documents, leo told conway he wanted her to give ginni thomas another $25,000 and he emphasized that the paperwork should have no mention of ginni, of course. of course. leo told "the washington post" it is of no secret that ginni thomas has a long history of working on issues within the cons

, and why the timing is of interest. >> leonard leo is not exactly a household name but he's a reallyortant figure in what has been a generation-long effort by conservative activists to shift the federal judiciary to the right, and he oversees an interlocking network of nonprofits that just a couple of years ago got a major infusion of $1.6 billion in cash. so he is an influential person, and what documents we reviewed show is that in 2012 he told kellyanne conway who would of course go on to join the trump white house, she was then in charge of her own polling firm, and he said, look, i want you to -- and the quote was give ginni thomas another 25k and he directed her to bill a nonprofit he advised, the judicial education project, and to use that money to then pay ginni thomas for what he said was consulting work. the timing matters because it was in 2012 that the judicial education project filed its first amicus brief and it was in shelby v. holder, the land mark voting rights case in which the stream court struck down a provision of the voting rights act that is meant to protect mi

the poster is reporting that leonard leo and ginni thomas, it repeats a pretty damning picture.be. what do you think it is? what do you make of it? >> certainly, it has the appearance of impropriety. it could be pay for play. so the only knee that he funneled to mrs. thomas, he funneled it through a nonprofit organization that ended up having matters before the court, they filed an amicus brief in section five shelby county the hold her case, that actually -- the heart of the voting rights act where justice thomas has been -- majority in that case, striking down the heart of the voting rights act. so at the very least, there is the appearance of impropriety. there is paul sibley a full-out conflict of interest and possibly a street bribe. but there seems to be no bottom to the ethical conflict that the court has and that justice thomas is executing. that is why we absolutely need ethical standards to apply to this court. >> basil, i want to give your thoughts on -- harlan crow paying for the tuition of a child in clarence thomas's care. harlan crow basically dismissing the repor

the post is reporting that leonard leo and ginni thomas, it paints a pretty damning picture.be perceived as a bribe. what do you think it is? what do you make of it? >> certainly, it has the appearance of impropriety. it could be allout pay for play. so, the money that he funneled to ginni thomas, he funneled through a nonprofit organization that actually ended up having matters before the court. they filed an amicus brief in the section five shelby county, the holder case, that actually struck down the heart of the voting rights act, where justice thomas was in the 54 majority in that case, striking down the heart of the voting rights act. so, at the very least, there is the appearance of impropriety. there's possibly a full out conflict of interest, and possibly a straight ride. there seems to be no bottom to the ethical conflicts this court has, and that justice thomas is executing. that's why we absolutely need ethical standards to apply to this court. >> basil, i want to get your thoughts on this propublica reporting about harlan crow paying full tuition for a child in c

let's start by saying what leonard leo told the "washington post" in response to that report.did not involve anything connected with either the court's business or other legal issues. knowing how disrespectful, malicious and gossipy people can be i have always tried to protect the privacy of justice thomas and ginny. so let me get to this, kate, about what's the same here and why these kinds of reports keep raising concerns and what's different. we saw just recently reports from propublica about republican billionaire harlan crow giving gifts to clarence thomas, gifts of travel and lodging, most recently a gift that involved the -- a grand nephew that clarence thomas and his wife were raising, money that would allow that child to go to a private boarding school. now, those instances were supposed to be reported as money that came to clarence thomas. this instance arguably did not have to be reported in any way because right now the spouses don't have to detail their income on these forms. but that aside let me just say that once again it's another issue that points up how much

of this court at this point it is at the lowest ebb in history. >> are you willing to subpoena leonard leor harlan crowe? obviously you won't subpoena supreme court justices. >> everything is on the table. >> one of the reasons that you are a little hamstrung is because your colleague dianne feinstein democrat of california is still out sick. senator schumer's office says she told him she is returning this week. her office has not confirm that. as you know senator feinstein has missed dozens of key votes. leaving all the rest in limbo. questions about her ability to perform her job were being raised years before her recent bout with shingles which we obviously hope she recovers from soon. at what point do the tens of millions of voters currently lacking full representation in the senate from california, at what point do they matter more than the feelings of a colleague whose health has been in question for a long time? >> i can just tell you senator feinstein is my friend and colleague of many years. she has gone through a lot. she lost her husband last year and had real medical issues tha

here's how leonard leo is responding to this reporting. involve anything connected with either the court's business or with other legal issues, knowing how disrespectful, malicious, and go gossipy people can be i've always tried to protect the privacy of justice thomas and ginni. the post did not receive responses from justice thomas, from ginni thomas his wife or k kellyanne conway. >>> in one of the highest profile january 6th cases yet, a jury in washington has convicted four far right proud boys members of seditious conspiracy including its former leader, enrique tarrio. prosecutors accused five men of mounting a sophisticated operation to block the transfer of power from former president trump to president joe biden. the jury convicted four of sedition and three other conspiracy charges, obstructing the electoral college vote and tampering with evidence. the fifth man was found guilty on a handful of other felonies. the verdict is a major win for the justice department marking the third time prosecutors have secured guilty sedition ve

the basis of la and on the basis of rich patron that they're beholden to a number talking about leonard leoe's a very powerful memo that comes to the supreme court pretty set handed not only shaping nominees to the court, specifically the last three and a president trump but even that threw "the federalist" society but he has shaped the agenda, push conservative concerns to the forefront of cases that the court has had to roll-on and they shape a lot of the laws that we know today including this morning easy access to guns . but i would say the case here i that supreme court justices based on who they are all have perks in terms of book feels that we perk criticisms of sata mayor's book deal and why she didn't recuse herself. that is markedly different than saying, oh, you know what, we are going to keep jenny thomas' name off of this and money is going to float into her pocketbook event to her family just like the money going to pa for the guardian though she was guarding for a child, for that private education but this is not healthy for that institution . >> the first analysis, talking a

we don't know whether leonard leo arranged other work or pages for her.of unanswered questions. you by think what these documents do show is a revealing moment, we often don't have much information about the income, the sources of income for the justices' family members on disclosure forms. they don't have to list the clients of their consulting firms for example in this case. so, this is significant because it shows, number one, that there was, you know, that it shows the source of some of this money and number two, i think the other significant detail here is the original source of the money, the judicial education project, and the subsequent years and even that same year did have interest before the courts. the supreme court specifically. and filing amicus briefs on hot-button issues. >> let me read that reporting. in december 2012, the project submitted an amicus brief challenging a landmark civil rights law aimed at protecting minority voters. the court struck down the voting right acts that which states have to obtain clearance and thomas was part o

now, you referred to leonard leo who arguably has had more effect on this supreme court than anyone outside trump appointees, and this is what he said to "the washington post" report. the work ginny did here did not connect to the court's business or legal issues, and knowing how disrespectful and gossipy people can be i have tried to respect the privacy of justice thomas and ginny. that's what he said. let me tell you, john, that privacy, secrecy? no. this is all showing how difficult it is for anybody in congress who wants a code of ethics, any watchdog groups, any media to get a handle on the money the justices have been accepting either as gifts and travel and, you know, money for education that justice clarence thomas took from harlan crow to help with his own travels but then also to help his young grand-nephew who was living with him. those were, you know, earlier reports this week, but this one just adds to that also making us wonder why are these people giving so much money to the justices, what do they expect in return and how could that possibly be affecting cases that go to -- y

citing documents, it reviewed the "washington post" reports that conservative judicial activist leonard leof thousands of dollars for consulting work, but gave specific instructions that her name be left off the paperwork. according to the "post"in january 2020 leo instructed gop pollster kellyanne conway to bill a nonprofit group he advises and use that money to pay thomas. the same year the nonprofit, judicial education project, filed a brief to the supreme court challenging a landmark civil rights law aimed at protecting minority voters. nbc news has not seen the documents or independently confirmed this reporting. in a statement to the "post"leo addressed his instructions for the paperwork writing, knowing how disrespectful, malicious and gossipy people can be i have always tried to protect the privacy of justice thomas and ginni. >> wait. leonard -- >> just let that sit. >> when you're sending money -- >> take that in. >> to a supreme court justice or a family member of a supreme court justice, it's gossipy for americans to know money's being funneled and a guy got what? $1.5 billion t

thomas for the 25,000 dollar payment that leonard leo directed. >> maybe you are not there yet, but dothem questions, appear before the committee? >> ultimately yes, but as you know from your own experience, as you are building to wards investigating, and inquiring of primary witnesses, build the case for us, get the records together, be familiar with the doctors and see what those witnesses have to say. what they the day in court is the one that you are prepared for when the key witnesses finally subject to inquiries. >> now, it may be that you're working with the finance committee on this as you just referred to since you are on that committee but, given senator van stein absence, you don't currently have subpoena power in the judiciary subcommittee as i understand it? are you considering working with other subcommittees like senator blumenthal standing committee on investigations, for example, in order to compel, then to testify, or get more information from them? or do you feel you have that power you need from the finance committee? >> i think we have the power that we need, i thi

when leonard leo is funneling money through to mrs. thomas, is he complying with the laws that cover the corporations? is it clear that there is actually work performed for that funding? so there is a great deal of investigations that still need to take place on the outer fringes of the immediate problem of why as justice thomas not disclosing these gifts and hospitality. >> what an interesting argument that we have been hearing is that you've accused groups of lobbying supreme court justices and even paying to get cases to the court. do the reforms you are talking about address that type of influence? >> that will take a little bit more work. the traditional role of the recusal statute has been to separate people where their friend, or person they are working with actually has a case before the court. what we have seen in the last couple of decades has been a very, very robust billionaire funded effort to control and influence the court. and i think if somebody with a case before the court ought to be the subject of this kind of role

but the defense that leonard leo put forth is preposterous, the idea that she was paid for things thatdo with the court. what was the head of an activist group is advocating around legal issues around the court, what was he paying ginni thomas for if it wasn't business related to what's happening on the court. i think these are very specific allegations related to ginni thomas that are a category difference from some of the other stuff that might not smell great related to harlan crow but might not be a direct issue to the legitimacy of the court. >> jake, while you have some moderate republicans calling into questions the ethics of all of this, you have other hard-liners who are fund-raising off of this. many are likely to go to their constituents to say help protect the supreme court, defend justice thomas here. do you get a sense that is an effective rallying cry for some of their bases? >> sure, why not? this is where politics is right now. rally your base behind the media in favor of conservatives. tim knows that well, not that he's done it, i'm not suggesting he's done it, but he

had in addition to everything else, leonard leo had been secretly, according to the paperwork, funnelingo ginni thomas, his wife. >> yeah, so first, the drop in confidence that you described in the supreme court is something that's happening across our institutions, congress and the presidency and the media and academia, and it's a disturbing trend. but i think it gets to the second point. perceptions matter a lot, and so some people spend a lot of time looking at the technical rules of disclosure and reporting and missing the bigger picture, which is if you have nothing to hide, then don't hide anything. you can always over disclose. when you don't disclose or you hide behind sort of technical rules, all well and good, andrea, but people don't have confidence in the institution. so over disclosed. there's no problem with doing that. >> and jonathan, i think you would agree that the court is in some difficult -- difficult situation here on the clarence thomas issue. we're going to have to run, but jonathan lemire, chuck rosenberg, thank you both so very much. >>> and the crowning moment,

was there actually work performed by ginni thomas for the 25,000 dollar payment from leonard leo thatwanted to hide? and what does this look like? there are lots of very strange structures and intermediate-ing corporate shells in the middle of all of this. so we really don't know the full details yet, what we do know is the court can't and won't police itself, and they either have to set up a new method to do, it or congress will have to pass a law that gives someone, requiring them to do it. >> senator, your committee has been absent one member, senator diane feinstein, due to a health issue. earlier this week, senator feinstein issued a statement saying the senate continues to swiftly confirm highly qualified individuals to the federal judiciary, including seven more judicial nominees, who were confirmed this week. there has been no slowdown, i'm confident that when a return to the senate, we will be able to move the remaining qualified nominees out of the committee quickly, and to the senate floor for a vote. but, senator our capitol hill does report, there has been a slowdown in t

are you considering calling harlan crow or leonard leo to testify? committee, but also in the finance committee, where i also say. chairman wyden has asked harlan crow for a tax information. there is a tech slim, it $17,000 of which you can give to somebody without paying a gift tax on it. these were gives much bigger than $17,000. it's not clear how much gift tax payments were made. there are a number of issues around this we're gonna be pursuing. including tax compliance, misuse of -- organizations. even potentially fraud, for instance, if there were no services rendered by mrs. thomas for the 25,000 dollar payment that leonard leo directed. >> maybe are not there yet, but do you want them to come so you can ask them questions, appear before the committee? >> i think ultimately, yes, but as you know, from your own experience, as you're building towards, you know, investigating and inquiring of primary witnesses, you want to build a case for us, get the records together, be familiar with the documents, and know what peripheral witnesses have to say

work that is according to documents reviewed by the, post which says legal activist, leonard leo, toldway to build a nonprofit group he works within send the money to mrs. thomas, the post says leo urged conway to, quote make no mention of johnny on the paperwork. the same year the nonprofit submitted an amicus brief to the course in a historic voting rights. case thomas did not recuse himself. if the conway's did not respond to the newspaper's request for. comment billionaire harlan crow paid the private school tuition for justice thomas's then teenage grand nephew who thomas raised, quote, like a son. thomas did not disclose the. gift it's a bank statement interview, nbc news has not independently verified this report. in his, statement harlan crow says this. these scholarships and other contributions have always been paid solely from personal funds, sometimes held and pay through the family business. nbc news has reached out to the supreme court with requests for comment from the court and justice thomas. with me now, nbc's legal analyst, joyce vance. joyce, we have a lot to talk ab