lerner's testimony. to date we have conducted 33 bipartisan transcribed interviews of witnesses from the i.r.s. we have heard witnesses' testimony during five committee and subcommittee hearings. because the i.r.s. is not full -- has not fully cooperated with the committee's investigation, i have issued three subpoenas for documents. the i.r.s. continues to withhold some of ms. lerner's emails from the committee. documents and testimony show that ms. lerner is uniquely positioned to provide testimony that will help the committee better understand how and why the i.r.s. targeted conservative groups. at a business meeting on june 28, 2013, the committee approved a resolution rejecting ms. learner's claim of fifth amendment privilege based on her waiver at the may 22, 2013. after that vote, having made the determination that ms. lerner waived her fifth amendment rights, the committee recalled her to appear today to answer questions pursuant to rules. the committee voted and found that ms. lerner waived her

our subpoena says all of lois lerner's e-mails. is it your position today that you intend to give us those responsive to some key search word or you intend to give us all of lois lerner's e-mails? all of holly paz's e-mails, all of william wilkins' e-mails, all of jonathan davis' e-mails? >> we are working through the process. we have never said we would not provide those. we are anxious, as i have said -- >> will you provide all of the e-mails for those four individuals? >> we will provide you -- we are actually trying to in an orderly way conclude the investigation on the determination process which is what the i.g. report reported to. we've had over 250 people at various times working on this investigation. we are producing e-mails. you will get e-mail copies today, redacted, and you will continue to get them. our hope is that you could concentrate on the determination process, gao is already at the congressional request doing a review studying a review on the examination process. as i've said in my letters to you -- >> commissi

lerner's attorney. ith that i yield back. >> i just want to note for the record i find it that the chairman of this committee would unilaterally side with an american citizen has waived her fifth amendment right while actually exercising his fifth amendment right not to answer your question ns on behalf of the minority of this committee. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] >> a hearing that gotunder way about 9:30 eastern this morning lasted maybe 20 minutes or so with former i.r.s. official, lois lerner, multiple times claiming her fifth amendment right not to incriminate herself. darrell issa, the chairman of the committee, gaveling the committee out. as you saw, democrats, including the ranking member, elijah cummings, continuing to speak and answer questions -- ask questions, rather. next up we are going to show you the comments of the chairman darrell issa and from representative cummings shortly after this hearing gaveled

lerner's absence of testimony. it would have allowed us to bring this investigation to a quick close if she had been willing to answer those questions. without us, we will have a few more questions to try to find out things she could have answered quickly today. >> are you confident you will get to the bottom of it? point, roads lead to ms. lerner. she becomes one of the key characters. had she been willing to explain those e-mails, which were provided through separate subpoenas, we could have brought this to a close. without that, it may dead end with ms. lerner. we are going to confer afterwards. any other questions? >> [inaudible] to -- there are cameras everywhere. we will confer to see our next steps. is not our primary concern today. we will continue investigating others at the irs in making determinations of how we can -- you ask a question earlier, do you think she's going to testify? likely, butthan there is a possibility that given a federal judge's order, she would testify. we will have to consider all o

lerner's e-mails. let me make it clear. your ways and means without a subpoena does not satisfy your obligation under a subpoena to produce all of her e-mails to this committee. commissioner, your objection or your refusal to cooperate with the committee delays bringing the truth cost the american people the confidence they hope to rebuild and clearly it's running up the cost to the american taxpayer. i know you want to bring this investigation to a close as soon as possible and i do, too. but the only way you can do that is to fully comply with the request and i hope you'll take that to heart today. i yield back. >> i now recognize the gentleman from ohio for his opening statement. >> thank you, mr. chairman. at least provide a little context for today's hearing. searching or 2010, the president of the united states in a state of the union address, the supreme court regarding the citizens united decision. singer 2010, the president numerous times talked about tea party groups a shadowy groups who would hurt our democracy.

lerner's testimony. to date we have conducted 33 bipartisan transcribed interviews of witnesses from the i.r.s. we have heard witnesses' testimony during five committee and subcommittee hearings. because the i.r.s. is not full -- has not fully cooperated with the committee's investigation, i have issued three subpoenas for documents. the i.r.s. continues to withhold some of ms. lerner's emails from the committee. documents and testimony show that ms. lerner is uniquely positioned to provide testimony that will help the committee better understand how and why the i.r.s. targeted conservative groups. at a business meeting on june 28, 2013, the committee approved a resolution rejecting ms. learner's claim of fifth amendment privilege based on her waiver at the may 22, 2013. after that vote, having made the determination that ms. lerner waived her fifth amendment rights, the committee recalled her to appear today to answer questions pursuant to rules. the committee voted and found that ms. lerner waived her

lerner would agree. but there is an investigation into possible criminal wrong doing and she is able to invoke this and say nothing. she has been assisted by eric holder's justice department with his open but fruitful investigation. >> we know none of the groups have sat down with the justice department saying these are the papers i signed, i had a wait three years, i was given scrutiny others were not. they have not had the. i want to play out the drama between cummings and isa this morning. what is your take on that? >> i think it would have been wise to let cumminging -- cummings -- have his question. >> i may state? >> you are free to leave but the gentlemen may ask the question >> mr. chairman, i have one procedureal question to help you get the information. >> what is your question? >> let me say what i have to say. first, i would like to use my time to make brief points. for the past year, the central republican talks in this -- >> we are adjourned. >> this is an uncomfortable moment. >> i think i

why isn't the media interested in the lois lerner? >> well, i think as long as she continues to plead the fifth. they don't really see new news being out there. i think people have bought in a little bit to the whole idea there is a phony scandal. if it's a phony scandal why won't she testify? the question is why republicans might want to consider giving her immunity so that they can get the full story out there. if they're not getting anything right now they might want to consider that. >> what happened yesterday is you had congressman issa very frustrated and upset that he actually went on "fox news sunday" and broke some news. she would not plead the fifth she would answer questions and ended up pleading the fifth anyway. frustrated. whether or not he had the right to do that that distracted things and turned congressman cummings into a victim and it would have been much better off to let him spout off, whatever. he could have made himself look like a fool. >> i was stunned with the emails they did present her with. one was dated o

>> just lois lerner's alone? >> just lois lerner. >> it would take a while. >> how long? minutes? >> there are millions of e-mails -- i don't know. i don't think it would be minutes. >> that's one of the brilliance of the e-mail system. you go in and check the sent box and the inbox and you suddenly have all the e-mails. correct? >> right. they get taken off and stored in servers and you have 90,000 employees. >> i'm asking to find one. they type in her e-mail address. >> we could find and we are, in fact, searching -- we can find lois lerner's e-mails. >> how long would that take? >> i have no idea how long. >> would it take a day? >> as i said, i have no idea. >> well, i just don't understand. you have a duly issued subpoena. if you were in the private sector and somebody was issued a subpoena and you didn't comply with it, what would happen to you? >> for this subpoena, the court would actually rule that it is far too -- >> oh, so you're going to make the determination? >> you asked the question. let me answer the question. in a court of law, if you had provided that subpoena,

last summer he could have told them to hold lois lerner in contempt.eeks later, she resigned and is collecting her taxpayer funded pension. this is all messed up. >>> still ahead, new developments in ukraine. shep smith is there. >>> also, is the white house hiding something from you? how much do they really know about secretary sebelius and her fund-raisi fund-raising? to stay at rest... to stay at rest... while a body in motion tends to stay in motion. staying active can actually ease arthritis symptoms. but if you have arthritis, staying active can be difficult. prescription celebrex can help relieve arthritis pain so your body can stay in motion. because just one 200mcelebrex a day can provide 24 hour relief for ny with arthritis pain d inflammation. plus, in clinical studies, celebrex is proven to improve daily physical function celeex can be taken with or without food. and it's not a narcotic. you and your doctor should balance the benefits with the risks. all prescription nsaids, like celebrex, ibuprofen naproxen and meloxicam have the same card

>> just lois lerner's alone? >> just lois lerner. >> it would take a while. >> how long? minutes? >> there are millions of e-mails -- i don't know. i don't think it would be minutes. >> that's one of the brilliance of the e-mail system. you go in and check the sent box and the inbox and you suddenly have all the e-mails. correct? >> right. they get taken off and stored in servers and you have 90,000 employees. >> i'm asking to find one. they type in her e-mail address. >> we could find and we are, in fact, searching -- we can find lois lerner's e-mails. >> how long would that take? >> i have no idea how long. >> would it take a day? >> as i said, i have no idea. >> well, i just don't understand. you have a duly issued subpoena. if you were in the private sector and somebody was issued a subpoena and you didn't comply with it, what would happen to you? >> for this subpoena, the court would actually rule that it is far too -- >> oh, so you're going to make the determination? >> you asked the question. let me answer the question. in a court of law, if you had provided that subpoena,

lerner.e e-mails, a full explanation on why she is calling the matter dangerous, and why. here is another matter she is saying about the targeting. we need to be cautious so it is not a per se political project in january of 2012. we need lois lerner to testify, cleta, so far she has said no, but you have news on who she is talking to, tell us sn. >> well, we learned today in a meeting, congressman issa's committee, according to an attorney during the past six months lois lerner has met privately with the investigators from the department of justice and apparently has not pleaded the fifth in those investigation hearings or committee conversations. and yet she will not speak to the american people. she wouldn't speak to their elected representative in congress but she will speak privately to the justice department. what does that tell us about the justice department investigation? she is more afraid of congress than she is the people who could indict her? >> but would she say, cleta, that thi

>> of lois lerner e-mails? >> as i said in january we will continue because we party started the process and its import to get the e-mails in the areas i talked about them will find out about january and will continue to work as the order and priority and what is noted, let you know how many e-mails there are in the process will be. are delighted to do that. >> i don't buy that personally. i've heard from a number people talk about constituents being concerned and i assume and i believe those are accurate representations. whether they represent the entire public to me is that important. every individual member in every organization in the country deserves to feel comfortable to be treated fairly by the irs. my view is whether it be part of it is not the question. everyone feels confident comfortable dealing with the irs. >> when i go home as other members have stated including mr. lynch, what i hear is there is a deficit of trust. people feel they are being targeted not only for the tax-exempt organization, but

lerner's attorney. and with that, i yield back. >> mr.mber, i just want to know for the record i find it supreme irony that the chairman of this committee would unilaterally decide an american citizen has waived her fifth amendment right, while actually exercising his fifth amendment right to not answer your questions on behalf of the minority of this committee. >> thank you very much. >> and so that was congressman elijah cummings saying based on the findings of the oversight committee, the house oversight committee, there appeared to be gross mismanagement within the irs, but not necessarily a political conspiracy. you saw there the hearing getting very heated, as lois lerner, who was in charge of that branch for the irs, again pleaded the fifth, so refusing to testify again today. and just to remind you, the irs accused of targeting tea party conservative groups. so that is what the hearing was about. and now we are going to turn to the budget. president obama heads to connecticut today to talk about the minimum wage, but first, congre

lerner's testimony. to date we have conducted 33 bipartisan transcribed interviews of witnesses from the i.r.s. we have heard witnesses' testimony during five committee and subcommittee hearings. because the i.r.s. is not full -- has not fully cooperated with the committee's investigation, i have issued three subpoenas for documents. the i.r.s. continues to withhold some of ms. lerner's emails from the committee. documents and testimony show that ms. lerner is uniquely positioned to provide testimony that will help the committee better understand how and why the i.r.s. targeted conservative groups. at a business meeting on june 28, 2013, the committee approved a resolution rejecting ms. learner's claim of fifth amendment privilege based on her aiver at the may 22, 2013. after that vote, having made the determination that ms. lerner waived her fifth amendment rights, the committee recalled her to appear today to answer questions pursuant to rules. the committee voted and found that ms. lerner waived her f

one is lois lerner is at the center of this. hands on involvement in terms of the targeting of conservative groups. that's one of the things we know, essentially that she's the central person behind much of this. it's troubling. the american people want to get to the bottom of it. >> what do the e-mails prove? keep in mind, as i know the viewers remember, she has taken the fifth countless times. we haven't heard from her other than when she took the fifth the first time, she said she had done nothing wrong. what are we to learn from the e-mails? >> you are right. she said originally she has done nothing wrong. in these e-mails, we know there were rules she violated so perhaps she misled congress even in that limited testimony she gave before pleading the fifth. also, it talks about political targeting. the context of the e-mails, talks about how effective the conservative groups were in their messaging and how she needed to address that. >> so, do you believe after looking at this report, then, that this whole situation begins a

it looks like lois lerner committed percentage. in february of 2012 she testified that she never changed the criteria for tax exempt organizations but they found a memo from june 2011 in which she directed the criteria to be changed. that sounds like purge. that's more than a smidgen. >> when i look at this obama administration, you got to look at the broad pattern here to see how much they deceive and lie, right? they never told the truth about benghazi. they deceived us on that. the president himself lied for years about obamacare. er eric holder was held for the gun smuggling in mexico. they have no cred ability at all. right up to the president they knew what was going on with the irs. they lie and deceive about everything. >> rick, i got to ask, it's a hypothetical but if this was being done by the republican administration, do you think that you would be calling for a special prosecutor with all of this evidence that's been leaking out? >> actually, i would, and this may surprise you. i actually agree with lizzy more than you

lois lerner pleads the fifth. hold her in contempt.d steps, offer her full immunicipality for testimony and two things can happen. if she takes full immunity and decides to offer testimony, we have an opportunity to find out what happened and the next step of that is darril issa to go after theires for codifying bad behavior that shpt happen against left or right. if she doesn't take full immunity, can the administration and erebbing holder and all of the players protect her, or do we not have enough on her. americans are all over this country are sick of government, back to kisterns point that produces little result or solution and we the people need to threaten them in the ballot box. >> how does that translate to the ballot box? do democrats vote or not vote? >> i think it affects potting ways. it depresses the vote a bit. and people lose hope that things are different. and things like the irs situation, along with a lot of other issues that happen could also mobilize people who are very frustrated with the government and want to re

because that will either exonerate or convict, essentially, lois lerner. >> mr. cummings is there with the president on not a sminlion of evidence. as a matter of fact, our evidence leads to lois lerner. and that's why we'd hoped to hear from her. if the ranking member had wanted to make a motion before i had adjourned i would have accepted. i adjourned. he then said he had a question. what you played there was after an adjournment. he then perked up and said i want to ask a question. i said what is your question. and then that exchange occurred because he didn't have a question. he was endlessly slandering the efforts of the committee. but having said that, we want to get to the truth. if the attorney had a proffer, which, as you know, would be tell us, don't tell us your client's innocent, tell us what we need to know. and he's never offered to do that. we've offered with his attorney, to be quite frank, his attorney in writing had supported the idea that she would testify under certain conditions. as we began rolling out an a little bit about what we intended

lerner is going to fight this as hard as she can. i think the biggest problem for congress, they are doing magnificent work on these investigations. they lack, for instance, justice department ability to bring charges against people. where this all ends in the end, may end up being more political than a question of legal system. >> dan? >> let's understand political stakes. no one made up the idea that these conservative groups were investigated. they were. many were put out of business. if this all goes away, what that means is the internal revenue service has become a weapon of politics. it can be used as an instrument of politics by an administration routinely against this political enemies. it has been done before. not on this level. it has become institutionalized. >> it goes to the heart of our democratic process. if a president or his party or people supporting him can go after his opponents, as far as how we get to the truth if justice won't act on it, there is private litigation out there. jim jordan saying let's have a spec

lerner is going to fight this as hard as she can. and i think the biggest problem for congress is they're doing magnificent work on this investigation. but they lack the ability to bring charges against people. where this ends, it may end up being more political than in the legal system. >> let's understand the political stakes. no one made up the idea that these conservative groups were investigated. they were. and many of them were put out of business. if this all just goes away, what that means is that the internal revenue service has become a weapon of politics. it kk used routinely against its political enemies. and it has been done before, but not on this level. it did not become institutionalized. that's what the stakiinestakes . >> as far as how we get to the truth if justice won't act on it, there's some private late gags out there. jim jordan's saying let's have a private prosecutor. he's suggested horowitz take on that role. >> you could say that the president has gotten away with it. the rules have been changed, and chang

and lois lerner knows some things, she's just not saying it. as issa admits, she's the key of whether this gets any further. we need news here. and this was a bit of a fiasco today. i don't think either side's winning now. this has just become a partisan mud-slinging fight. >> do you know whether they have tried to strike a deal with her, immunity or whatever, to talk about this? because, obviously, she knows a good deal, her lawyers said as much. so, sing like a canary. do anything to get her to talk. >> yeah. this is a tough spot for republicans, because they don't want to give her full immunity, and i would imagine that there have been some negotiations back and forth and we've seen some e-mails that have been released, because lerner's attorney was disputing what issa said on sunday. so, you know, where we go from here, the senate is still investigating this, and that's actually a bipartisan investigation. we haven't seen that report. we're coming upon a year of this coming to light. and i'm sure republicans are going to have one-year anniv

if you needed further evidence that lerner was not looking to target the right, issa also cites lerner'sote, we need to be cautious so it isn't per se a political project, more a c4 project that will look at levels of lobbying and political activity along with exempt activity. on the isle of issa, that per se, is supposed to be evidence of a cover-up. naturally. but that's not all. issa also devoted an entire section of his report to lerner's management style. he cites a former staffer who said lerner wouldn't make an ideal witness, because, quote, lois is unpredictable. she's emotional. conservatives, of course, have already made up their minds. lernerer is the scowling face of irs misdeeds screamed a george will headline, or as rush limbaugh put it, when i look at this lois lerner, irs babe, i see someone mean, vindictive, unhappy, vengeful. the woman just encapsulates all of that just in her facial expression. that's funny, because you know who i think of as encapsulating the face of miserable, mean, vindicti vindictive, and vengeful politics? darrell issa. >>> after the break, congre

lerner, we'll grant you immunity. we want to hear what you have to say. i think when you heard elijah cummings, he was hiding -- >> let me educate you on the facts because lois lerner in may of 2013 sent an apology to the american people blaming the tea party targeting on a line of people in cincinnati and described steps that she took to combat the misconduct. and then it goes on to say the tea party groups received letters from the cincinnati office, not just from cincinnati but from coast to coast. we know that tea party groups were targeted. now, where is elijah cumming's anger and frustration and indignation against the groups who had every right to do what they were doing? where is your indignation, juan? >> where is your sense of fair play? >> where did she apologize? >> that would say, oh, yeah, we were denied our tax exempt status, there is not one. >> and out of the 44 clients that jay seculow has, how many of those people do you think were even talked to about what happened to them? >> they say they haven't been talked to -- >> oh, how do you d

so lerner ultimately is going to fail.hat's my take. >> you can talk about the fact that reports of the tea party's death has been greatly exaggerated all to the horror of harry reid. but we can't talk about this and say all right, they're now getting certified. that's like saying i got shot but at least you're at a hospital. we have to discuss that the irs was used against the american people. lois lerner was on some kind of martyrdom mission. was directed in a group of people who really thought that was important to not allow the citizens united decision to stand. one of the quotes was somebody has to do something about it. created this multi-tier approach. carter hull, 48 years at the irs, carter hull says he has never had to send anything to counsel in order to get it approved. this step on step on step. this is sick stuff that we're witnessing. >> a lot of tea party groups -- the irs is being embarrassed. >> it's not enough. >> now, i think they should make an example of lois lerner, but that assumes that -- a contemp

he's calling back former irs official lois lerner who has refused to testify. "fox news sunday" exclusive. and president obama prepares to unveil his new budget with defense cuts and no entitlement reforms. >> it makes no effort to address the drivers of our debt and deficit. >> we'll sit down with leaders of the congressional budget the committee, senator rob portman and congressman chris van hollen. plus arizona governor jan brewer vetoes a bill that would protect religious freedom over gay rights. but other states may take up similar measures. our sunday panel weighs in. and our power players of the week. they are making the please don't touch signs at museums a thing of the past. all right now on fox "fox news sunda sunday". hello again from fox news in washington. we begin with a fast moving developments in ukraine. president obama spoke with russian president putin and said the u.s. will suspend planning for the g-8 summit in sochi this summer. putin got approval from the russian parliament to send troops into ukraine. and the russians have seized control

chairman, i have one procedural -- >> miss lerner, you're released. >> first i would like to make myake some brief points. for the past year, the central republican accusation in this investigation -- >> we're adjourned. close it down. >> before our committee received a single document -- >> thank you. >> chairman issa went on >> joining me now is elijah cummings, the ranking member on the oversight committee. congressman, i'll say it again. when i saw that happen in your house hearing, i said i've never seen anything like it. each time i look at that video i'm stunned by it. and now we realize, analyzing the tape as stan brand has done and advised you on it, there's a parliamentary violation there that makes it impossible for chairman issa to continue what he believed was his pursuit against lois lerner to try to get her held in contempt of congress. >> yes. he was so busy adjourning the meeting that he failed to adhere to constitutional law and it's very, very clear, you've got to give a person in miss lerner's position due process and as stan said on your show last night, one of t

lois lerner plead the fifth.adjourned the hearing, democrat elijah cummings explode in a anger, mike turner was there, he joins us here. the budget is not boring, it is a different plan to win this november. we have gone through it for you. we are shocked at what is in it. you think you have to responsibilities to spend your money? we are on that too. dr. keith ablow on teenagers suing their parents. moments from now the facebook sleuth who said some social media appetizers are wasting your money. just drama, passion, here we go. president obama's budget proposal includes a proposal to expand the earned income tax credit. that is a program that gives a check to low-income earners every year. the new proposal is 7.7 million workers get a larger payment and 5.8 million newly eligible for that check once a year. the program is right for corruption, the irs over paid $15 billion through the earned income tax credit in 2012. liz macdonald, more on this. is a corrupt program. liz: tax preparers oversee it, not the irs

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darrell issa wants to have the this contempt vote regarding lois lerner.is after talking with folks on the committee, lois lerner, what happens given more time, perhaps a week, was essentially to testify if granted immunity and if darrell issa does, in fact, believe this is a wide-scale fraudulent operation being run at the irs directly tied to the white house going after these republican-leaning groups, then why not offer someone like lois lerner, who's a low-level employee, this immunity and go all the way to the white house and get them? but the fact of the matter is this has taken on a very political tone, it's something that feeds the base, the red meat that they have like sod much, and they're going to move forward on this contempt vote more likely than not, possibly as early as two weeks. and boehner, interestingly enough, alex, he sort of put the brakes on this when darrell issa had that exchange with elijah cummings a few weeks back, realizing the optics were not so good. since that cooled down a bit, the optics are better and they'll say this is

and number two, forget lois lerner. this issue is much bigger than lois lerner.t pat touched on. this is the corruption of the irs for political purposes, when nixon mused about using the irs to go after his enemies, they had an article of impeachment in the house judiciary committee. >> maybe there was more transparency then. just to clarify, her attorney said she will testify, but she will show up this week, ask for a week delay. if she gets it, she may testify. >> but you know, she is being used as a political pawn in a bigger game, which plays into what pat and john are talking about. basically, the corruption of our entire federal government, the politicization of the investigatory process. i don't believe she's believed she's waived her fifth amendment right, whether or not, to be fair to you, jamie, she has done it. more political circus, more political theater. we're not going to learn anything from her, i don't believe, except our government is irretrievably and irrevocably broken. >> at the same time, the irs is planning bigger attacks because not even

. >> once again, lois lerner takes the fifth in the irs investigation. but members of congress certainly weren't silent. >> we have members over here who represent 700,000 people. you cannot just have a one-sided investigation. >> tonight we'll have the inside story about an alleged scandal that is still chaotic. ♪ macho, macho man ♪ i've got to be a macho man >>> the russian leader putin continues to thumb his nose at the world. and now some obama supporters are using putin against republicans. we'll tell you what that's all about. and dennis miller will weigh in. >>> please welcome the wickedly talented one and only adele dazim. >> huh? also tonight what the heck was john travolta doing at the academy awards? it was beyond bizarre. we will explain it. caution. you are about to enter the no-spin zone. the "factor" begins right now. >>> hi. i'm bill o'reilly. thanks for watching us tonight. the irs investigation goes nowhere again. that is the subject of this evening's "talking points memo." to bring you up to date, there are charges the internal revenue

from the few lerner documents we've received, we know washington, d.c. orchestrated the targeting of groups applying for tax exempt status, surveillance of existing tax exempt groups and formed the proposed 001 c-4 rules designed to push conservative groups out of the public forum. so we already talked about if they find that there were layers of deceptions on the part of the irs, you know, you said you're not sure if someone will get fired or if they could face jail time. but moving on, i want to say this, that as you know, congressional democrats acknowledge that it was wrong for the irs to ask improper questions of the tea party groups. but they say, listen, some progressive groups were put under the microscope, as well. adding that there is no evidence showing that the irs employees were ordered to target the tea party. i mean, do you think the additional e-mails and documents will corroborate this or dispute this? >> that's certainly what republicans are looking for. they believe this is a connection between what was happening in the ohio office whe

it is not about defending lois lerner.ut making sure that we are told the constitution of the united states of america -- uphold the constitution of america. people have rights thaupd constitution. chairman issa has that right. i have rights. every single citizen in our country has rights. that's what we have been trying to do. period. >> just one more time to reiterate, have you as a ranking member on the house oversight committee seen any evidence that the white house had any contact with lois lerner before the irs began scrutinizing 501-c groups? >> absolutely not. chairman issa knows that. he has called 38 witnesses and interviewed. every one of those witnesses has made it clear the white house was not involved in this and that there is month political motivation. >> all right. thank you, congressman cummings. appreciate it. >> thank you. >>> all right. john boehner said again and again he wants immigration reform. but it is not hard to read between the lines and see that's not the case. why this is setting up yet anot

i think the reality is this is pointing much higher up the chain than lois lerner. either should get immunity to testify or be held in contempt. >> that's my question. is she holding out for immunity. >> i think so. if i was her lawyer, i would be trying to get immunity, too. she made some statements that were incriminated. she planted a question so she could take the report, independent investigators report within treasury. you can't forget that fact. >> so many unanswered questions. >> been going since the beginning. i think she wants immunity. the question is whether they will give it. >> amazing developments. thanks so much, jay. >>> massive fire engulfing a three-story apartment building. crass particular steps to get out alive. ukraine, what russia has over europe that may cause leaders to shy away from supporting any u.s. sanctions. >>> is global warming biting into a chipotle staple? why the chain might have to pull guacamole from the menu. are you kidding me? that brings us to the favorite question. if your favorite restaurant quits serving guacamole, will

lois lerner being worried about the koch brothers. and lois lerner cutting out cincinnati, at the irs, oh, cincinnati was rogue, they acted on their own, no, this was a striblgtly washington, d.c., operation. the hysteria by representative c cummings. >> do you think it was theater? >> looking, he gave chairman issa -- i think he gave him an excuse to crying. let's let him then respond to this memo. instead of cut the mike, i'm sorry, and make this now the story that his mike was cut instead of the smoking gun proof that we have been looking for that surfaced today. >> it speaks to her knowledge and awareness, the memo, i'm not convinced perhaps as you, that it does represent a smoking gun in terms of demonstrating her guilt, but there's no question it should be explored and it is a significant move forward. but, on that issue, where does this investigation go from here? the attorney general of the united states has been held in contempt by congress. there are six major investigations going on by the issa committee. where are we heade

chairman, lois lerner won't talk to us. she'll talk to the justice department because she knows that investigation. she'll talk to the people who can put her in jail and she won't talk to us and the guy who can give us the e-mails won't give us the e-mails. here's why today's hearing is so important. the c-4 rule that's being proposed that got 149,000 comments would codify what lois lerner put in to practice. would, in fact, accomplish the goal that she set out to do in 2010. the c-4 rule, we had a hearing three weeks ago, mr. chairman. we had a hearing three weeks ago where we had aclu, tea party patriots, the motorcyclists association of america and the homeschool legal defense. all four of those groups came to that hearing and you know what they all said? this rule stinks, and should be thrown out. think about that. from the aclu, to the tea party, from homeschoolers to harley riders, everyone knows this rule stinks. everyone knows, except the irs. and now today, we get a chance, finally, to question the guy in charge of

miss lerner said tea party conservatives were hit with extra scrutiny.w, all of a sudden, she takes the fifth and doesn't testify. same with eric holder. there is absolutely no cullpability in washington, d.c. over anything, no truth that will be found in this three ring dog and pony circus the morningmen perpetrate, it will make it worse. >> how do you characterize the doa investigation into this? >> not as hard working as the ir acts. >> here we go. you are never going to get audited, ever. >> we are close, the irs are trying to bring money as cheaply as possible. i don't think we want to know how this is made. just because they do stuff, it isn't ready to be aired publicly, it doesn't mean the white house told them to do it. let's be honest, there are tea party operations that have a thing to say about the irs. if you abolish the post office sign, i am sure your mail wouldn't get delivered on time i'm sure that will give you a heightened irs agreement amongst itself. >> i think you are safe, though. all right, thanks, guys. >>> my roof, my rules. one

lerner will cooperate with this committee and therefore we stand adjourned. >> mr.n, i have a statement .i have a procedural question, mr. chairman. mr. chairman, i have a procedural question. mr. chairman, you can not run a committee like this. you just cannot do this. this is -- we're better than as a country. we're better than that as a committee. i have asked for a few minutes to ask a procedural -- now you're turning me off. >> in that unprecedented moment when darrell issa adjourned a hearing without allowing any other member of the committee to speak, he not only violated committee norms and protocols, he committed with one house representative parliament expert has called a fatal error. joining me now is attorney stan bran who has served as general counsel to the u.s. house of representatives under the speakership of democrat tip o'neill and luke russert who broke this story. stan brand, you have advised the committee, elijah cummings and the house of representatives that what we just witnessed on video there is is a fatal procedural error for the investigat