>> he's viewed probably in the same way that lerone bennett is viewed. they're both viewed -- their opinions are -- their interpretations are viewed more as extremist interpretations, i think. i understand why their interpretations are what they are. i think they are a reaction to what they see -- and i don't want to try to put words in their mouths. but i think it's a reaction as to what they see as sort of an over-the-top attitude about lincoln, that he is perfect, that he -- you even have people saying, well, he entered the war knowing he would get rid of slavery and the war was all about that. i don't see that when i do research. and what i've attempted to do in the last several years is to try to bring a little bit more balance to an understanding of lincoln. he doesn't have to be perfect. none of us are, but that doesn't mean that he's not important. >> here is professor dilorenzo talking about a career as a historian and where you have to come down in his opinion on abraham lincoln. >> if you want a career as a historian, as an academic historian

they say lerone bennett said that the emancipation proclamation didn't free black people, and he is a terrible man for disturbing the peace of the republic. that's the first sentence. the second sentence, of course, the emancipation proclamation didn't free black people. the 13th amendment, everybody knows that, freed black people. agree with my first point. the second point, they say lerone bennett, this is a review, says that abraham lincoln was a racist. he is a terrible man for saying that. of course he was a racist. second sentence. all white people in the 19th century were racists. i disagree with that. i defend white people in the 19th century. i think it's absurd to say that everybody in the 19th century was a racist, but that's their defense. my point is they agreed with my second point. of course he was a racist. the third point, again, is lerone bennett says that abraham lincoln wanted to deport black people and creat a whitnaon. of course he wanted to deport black people. not because heisliked them, but because he loved them so muchand he didn't think they would ever be tr

lerone bennett? >> a wonderful scholar who has written some very important works, who has -- a great researcher as well. i think he's right that we have elevated lincoln to godlike status. i think w.b. dubois perhaps said it best in the 1920s when he said that we have a tendency to make icons of ordinary men and that, you know, once they're dead, we have to elevate them to this godlike status, and as a consequence what we get is someone who's cold and dead. we don't really get a person. and i think he's right about that. the problem with the way lincoln is treated in the literature, in historical writings, is that he is flawless, he can do no wrong, he emancipated the slaves by himself. and i think when you do that, we do a disservice to a great man. he was very complex. he was very much a 19th century man, but very much unlike 19th century men as well. and i think we do better for him and for the nation and for an understanding of the civil war if we view him in all of his complexity. and i think we