he also lied under oath about leaking. james comey lied under orth.is second-in-command, andrew mccabe. he was actually fired because of his pattern of lying. where are the federal cases against these liars? against these people. they lied to congress. instead, we are pushing for charges, we are firing colby and he defended it. he said, i lied. you can still be a good person if you live. well, less of are republican and they're going to put you in jai. >> he was fired for lying multiple times within the fbi. you defended his character on twitter. that is okay. lying is okay? >> does not okay.tes what an organization that is committed to the truth looks like. i order that investigation. we investigated and hold people accountable. good people live. i laid out on the book, i think i'm a good person. i still believe andrew mccabe is a good person. he found that he lied and there are severe consequences in the justice department for lying as they should be throughout the government. >> sean: good people, they live. the only problem is, they're not giving

it is full of lies to go after -- >> sean: russian lies used.o propagandize the american people to get votes using the russia lies that you bought and paid for. how is it possible that mueller ignores all of this and the media ignores all of this? >> i don't know how it is possible but the american people are not dumb, sean, the american people are seeing right through this. believe me. they are realizing that there are two sets of rules and this is why it is important for congress even now, even people are saying it is a lame duck congress. it is very important that we continue to push for investigation. it is important to get to the truth. f >> sean: last word, we'll give it to you, congressman chaffetz. how do we get equal justice? >> first thing we need to do is that congress needs to get james comey back up in thatt transcribed interview and let trey gowdy and john ratcliffe, jim jordan and mark meadows, let them go after them. at the do that before the clock runs out in january. >> sean: remember, we also have lindsey graham in the senate.

all the lies that are told. the lies were always about russia. they were very intertwined on some very key dates. >> well, nicolle, it's a tale two of trump towers. the project in moscow and the trump tower meeting in new york. and today's plea deal, today's statement of offense by michael cohen really ties the two trump towers together. what do i mean by that? june 2016, the trump organization was negotiating a $3 billion deal to build the tower in moscow. the person who brokered that deal between putin and trump was aris agalarov, the russian billionaire who paid trump $20 million to host the miss universe pageant in moscow. it was agalarav and his son who sent word in june 2016, hey, the russian government delegation wants to come to trump tower and discuss the terms of this deal. the terms of the deal was the russians were going to interfere in the election and in return magnitsky sanctions would be relieved if donald trump was elected. in order to believe that donald trump did not know about the new york trump tower discussions, you'd have t

he lied in written documents. it was a deliberate lie. >> what are he lied about were the people and people who speak for the president said were over and long over. i don't know what you are talking about. it was over. i did the miss universe. that was the hoax of this. here's what he lied about. misled congress. continued discussions through june 2016. admits they did not end. cohen agreed to travel to russia is admits traveling to russia. he had contacts with russian officials. it blows up this whole once i became a candidate for president, i stop anything that would be improper or possibly coordination of collusion. >> one of the things these documents do is give us a window into what has been going on behind the scenes. you have wondered why does the president tweet up a storm about this? he was preparing to respond to mueller with written answers. they were spooked. there was paranoia in the trump team because they thought mueller had something up his sleeve. we know this was up his sleeve. sometimes you are

trump lies because he's a liar.nd the crazyiest ones are when he -- like the one i cite as an example is when he made up a phone call from the ceo of the boy scouts of america. the head of the boy scouts called me and said i gave the greatest speech ever to the boy scout jamboree. >> we have to do a whole hour on this. a whole hour on -- >> absolutely. >> at the end of the year, we'll do the top ten lies of the year. i have you here and i have to ask you. i looked at hundreds of people on my staff who want to talk to mueller. he didn't have 100 staffers. he had seven. second, i googled trump and hundreds and the first thing that came up was thousands of muslims cheering on -- what is his thing with big numbers. the big number is the tell. it's always a lie when it's dozens, hundreds or thousands. >> yeah, almost none of his numbers are correct. and so i fact check everything he says. so immediately when i go through the transcript, if there's a number, i google it and it's inevitably wrong. when you ask local offici

it >> antjuan: harris, there are people that have gone down tesco >> kennedy: he lies, lies, lies, lies committee holds the bible high! >> antjuan: i'm not saying -- it seems like antjuan's right, he's just outnumbered. [laughter] >> harris: that's a good one. >> harris: in a new interview, the president is not ruling out a pardon for his former 2016 campaign chair, paul manafort. we will fold him essential into conversation. stepping up his criticisms of the mueller investigation. we will continue this debate later in the hour. plus, the president right now is headed to the g20 summit. he just canceled his planned meeting with out them impute in there and, meanwhile, a growing number of senators slamming the white house's response to saudi arabia. after the death of columnist jamaal khashoggi. what is the potential effect of all this question marks to clos close. >> why are you meeting with the crown prince kristin america ♪ higher! higher! parents aren't perfect, but then they make us kraft mac & cheese and everything's good again. means they won't hike your rates over one mistake. se

what else do you have evidence that he lied about?> well, there's still a lot of questions about whether or not he traveled -- we know he traveled in july and october of 2016. we gave him an opportunity to provide documents to show he had only gone to london and italy as he said. he failed to deliver those documents. we asked republicans to subpoena those travel records for that time period they didn't allow us to do that. there is still a lot of questions whether he was acting at the direction of candidate trump and going overseas, meeting with foreign nationals seeking to meet with the president. >> you have questions, but no hard evidence he lied about other topics? just to be clear here. >> we also, as it relates to the june 9 meeting, we have strong evidence that trump and cohen talked almost daily about campaign stuff and so, again, when you take circumstantially what we know about that relationship and how close trump's office was to cohen's -- >> i understand what you think. just asking, do you have hard evidence michael cohen

the charge obviously being that he lied to congress.k and you look at this thing and you realize that everybody -- everybody is lying about their contacts with russia. i mean, it started with mike flynn to papadopoulos to manafort and now to cohen, lying to congress is a pretty big deal. people don't do that as a normal course. so it obviously raises the question, why? why would there be all this lying? what's underneath? that's obviously something i suspect we're going to hear from mueller. and as you were just saying, you know, this certainly give us some threads to follow-up on. of course the transcripts of the various witnesses that came before the house intelligence committee before it was abruptly ended now i think are going to be subject to some extra scrutiny. >> in terms of those transcripts, obviously they take on renewed interest now given that we are told that mueller was allowed to review the transcript of cohen's testimony to the senate committee in the presence of cohen's lawyer. there has been ambiguous information from

what that means is that if michael cohen lied, then the president lied. i have listened to chuck rosenberg who is always the yoda in these matters and it is important to bring him in and get him locked down. so cohen has now raised the hand and said it is so under oath, and he has talked about the president's family here. we have talk about don jr., and there is some old reporting from 2017 that talks about michael cohen and felix sader, and sader mentioning taking ivanka to russia and have her sit in huetin's chair, so hu hue -- putin's chair, and so what we don't know is that it is going to his family and certainly much more quickly and closer than he wants it to be. >> and talk to us about this, the implications of all of this. extraordinary timing the michael cohen guilty plea, and setting out these facts under oath, and the president on the plane going to the world summit, and you want to go to the summit with strength, and political strength and certainly not this legal cloud hanging over your head, and now the consolation of the putin summit, discu

and congress who is going to have democratic gavels looking into who else lied. richard blumenthal is my guest onset. and we're going to hear from the attorney that was trump's lawyer before cohen. i interview jay goldberg. and the big picture, chris hayes gives us more context where this is headed and fallout from my interview with a mueller witness so crucial to the case against roger stone and potentially wikileaks. >> i am 72 years old, i might die in jail. >> would you accept a pardon? >> i was telling the truth. >> you were telling the truth about a lie. did you expect him to tell trump? >> there's nothing in writing. >> you're watching "the beat" on msnbc. coaching means making tough choices. jim! you're in! but when you have high blood pressure and need cold medicine that works fast, the choice is simple. coricidin hbp is the #1 brand that gives powerful cold symptom relief without raising your blood pressure. coricidin hbp. ♪ ♪ the united states postal service makes more holiday deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country. ♪ with one notable exce

they lied too.would see that. i think the bigger picture here is we have to be asking why are these people lying. yes these false statement, the perjury counts are very very important and mueller has shown that over and over again why they're important. it's important because it covers conflicts of interest as well as just corrupt our criminal justice system but i think it's also important because lying is usually to cover up some other criminal activity. i saw that time and time again as a prosecutor. people don't lie for no reason. i think that's probably what is weighing on people. when will it come out the real reason why these lies are being told? >> i know that house intelligence or house lawmakers, democratic lawmakers in the house on the intelligence committee wanted to talk to ivanka trump. i'm not sure they ever did. jeff, have that and what's it like down there with the advance team that's already there for the president and what do folks expect when donald trump does land? >> reporter: t

lied about this. he actually said it duoes not matter. here he is. >> there would be nothing wrong if i did do it. i was running my business while i was campaigning. there was a good chance that i wouldn't have won, in which case i would have gone back into the business and why should i lose lots of opportunities. i was allowed to do whatever i wanted during the campaign. i was running my business, a lot of different things during the campaign. >> i want to ask gloria about that in a moment, steve, but first this point. if the deal really did end in june of 2016, they were lying about it before but it really ended then, the papadopoulos month, the dnc hack month, all those other things, would putin really be able to hold this over trump's head, president trump's head, steve, in your view? >> sure, absolutely. again, i'll defer to the lawyers on the panel with regard to the legality of it but from a counterintelligence perspective, remember, donald trump is the kind of guy who has a couple of character

i lied for a reason.istent with individual 1, the president's political messaging, and out of loyalty to him. it's not so much that you make a misstatement. if somebody asked him, oh, what were you doing on such and such date, well, you know, the best i remember it is i was going to the gym, and then i ran errands and did all sorts of different things. you know, that's really a gray area there, but if they find that one of these people knew about it or intentionally misled congress, intentionally told them something that wasn't true, then at that point there is real legal jeopardy for them, so as they go over these transcripts they're going to match that up with evidence, documents that congress has gotten, communications that congress has gotten, and then they may from that point make a referral to congress or other testimony. you know, if you have five people saying this is what we did on this day, you have one person saying something totally different, then at that point you're going to say, well, was

this is part of the lowering of the bar for him to say, well, we're just going to call the lies liesnd everything else -- it's not on us to categorize them. >> i completely agree. you remember the agonies the bush administration went through on the question of the words involving uranium coming from niger. the idea that there was something untrue, not a lie, but something untrue in something the president said in a state of the union address. that was, what, 15, 14 years ago? and it is incumbent on the white house to make sure every word that comes out of a presidential statement, and out of the president's mouth is as close to the truth as possible. i had this experience just over a year ago after i interviewed mike pompeo on stage at the aspen institute. and a member of the white house said something untrue about the interview. i demanded a correction. i never got one. i went to the cia. i'd known mike pompeo for a long time. i said this is a falsehood coming out of the white house being repeated about what was said. they backed away and did nothing. that set the tone this is an ad

what we're getting to right now is the lies and questions have been lies about protecting a career built on fraud and potentially on financial crime and potentially on money laundering, and those lies because they are all about the one thing he cares about, himself and his money, those are things he has a lot of focus on. the things he has focus on are things he's capable of coordinating. >> this is sort of the ultimate contradiction of the trump era. he also -- there's one thing that everyone has lied about. it's not like one person lied about context with russia and one person forgot about meet with the brits and another forgot about a chitchat with spain. they all lied about the same thing, to frank's point. >> again, the famous bill clinton thing of how when you see a turtle on a fence post you know it didn't get there by accident. it's the same thing. you don't lose by 3 1/2 million votes and eke out a narrow electoral college victory without some kind of intelligence and a whole bunch of people telling lies that snap together like a jigsaw puzzle without some coordinated intelligen

we know manafort lies all the time. we don't know whether he is lying this time about this meeting, in his public defense or what he said to bob mueller. but we do know he, according to mueller, lied about something material. and if he was willing to lie to jeopardize getting any leniency in jail at his admittedly old age, he must have had a pretty big reason to do that. as i mentioned, i'm thrilled that we have congressman gerald who joins me momentarily for reporting. anna scheckter is here. she just interviewed corsi, atmosphere the keystone associate. david jones, talented expert who brings a note of skepticism to the "guardian" story, and malcolm nance, author of "the plot to hack america." malco malcolm, why is this story important, if true? >> i think that if this story is true, this is the first real definitive evidence that we have of what i call the bridge. the bridge between russian intelligence, their subcontractor julian assange and wikileaks, and the trump team. and to tell you the truth, i have to -- i'm

the president has lied again. this is why it's hard for me to take at face value what the president and his allies are saying about anything in relation to russia. even what the president's lawyers are saying and if i'm coming from rudy giuliani i'm giving it a side eye because they have been known of to say whatever it is that's advantageous to donald trump. when the 1616th congress gets together that the house intelligence committee will take up a more serious tone when it comes to this investigation. >> but you think mueller is not doing 'good enough job? >> the house has oversight. >> right. >> and the house has a committee that was supposed to do their due diligence and thanks to devin nunes they didn't. >> the question about nuannez o that committee? >> part of the michael cohen files mentioned trump family members. might this spell trouble for donald trump jr. and 13 months behind barsed for an accused serial child rapist. a deal struck by one of the president's cabinet members. stay with us. team member, t

the last thing i'll ask is about lies, about witness, being witness to lies, and being witness to the truth. i think the first two lines of your book, kiese, is i did not want to write you. i want told write a lie. and there is for me the shift is about being a witness to truth and testifying about it. and so if each of you could talk around that theme and also what you want people to know about your memoir. as you are being -- as you are testifying about the truth. >> i'll go. okay. so, when i got this invitation to come here issue was thrilled. love nashville, love book city ofs festivals and then i saw the tile re verb racings of racism, memoir of personal freedom and i thought, i've wanted to write a enemy more since i was and it's thought i could and there was nothing to write about when i was eight. and i didn't see this that way except i realized that in writing the is say i wrote and no choosing essays it's a memoir of things that are important to me. so whale would tell you that i learned more than anything is when you talk about lies, america is a glorious lie. it has been a

he may have lied about russians to protect them. he may have lied about trump. we don't know. we will find out. the one thing is they will have definitive trouble he lied. they would not rip up this cooperation agreement unless they prove beyond a reasonable doubt he lied to them. >> people talk about perjury traps. this is not a "stephanie, what did you have for lunch last wednesd wednesday." this is a conversation where they would have not only proof but substantial, misleading or lying statements. the defendant's crimes and lines. it's a lie -- it's a crime to lie to them. are they referring to other crimes? we'll have to wait -- >> -- indicate that. >> i think whatever it was was really material and there was serious allegations of lies in order to tear this up, to dan's point. >> let me just say, i think trump is making a mistake. guess what, what did -- >> hold on though, you can say that at this toint because we think it's absurd. go to a different part of the country and people will tell you mueller is out to get the good president. >> what if mueller exonerates him? y

and i'll say it again, he either lied to the public about the business he did in rushy or he lied inen answers. one or the other is false. he cannot have it both ways. he can't say i never did business with them and then say, well, i did business with them until june. so he's caught right now. i think that this is really significant day. it is a turning point in the investigation, and we'll have to see what's going to happen next, but i'm sure that robert mueller is not done yet. >> lawrence, can i point out one bizarre thing about donald trump's tribe today? he talked about michael cohen lying, well, the statements in his plea agreement are backed up by e-mails and documents. and i spoke to felix seder who was a partner in the trump tower deal and he says what michael cohen is now saying is accurate. so it was very strange donald trump was talking about michael cohen lying, perhaps he was talking about something else he was aware of that cohen was telling prosecutors that isn't reflected in this agreement. >> let me get something that was in the middle of what donald trump said ther

they'll be able to investigate all of these lies to congress. and the second is, even if the democrats don't want to do it, impeachment. they almost are going to have to look at it very, very seriously now because this isn't just criminal. this is the president campaigning in 2016, and hiding all of his negotiations with russia. not the russian-like businesses like marriott hotels or something, but with the kremlin itself, the number two person as you were saying at the kremlin. so that -- you know, that's bad and the american people obviously should have had a right to know that at the time. but also just think about the last two years have been a period of intense compromat. the russians have known that trump lied to the american people for two years. imagine all the subtle things they could have done to get their bidding done over the last two years. >> it's a great point. independent of whatever else they may have on him, they did know he was lying to the american people about this deal because they were on the other side of it. >> exactly.

now cohen says he lied. his plea reads, quote, the moscow project was discussed multiple times within the company and did not end in january, 2016. instead, as late as approximately june, 2016, cohen and individual two discussed efforts to obtain russian governmental approval for the moscow project. individual two is presumed to be this man, felix seder. seder is a russian born brooklyn bred real estate investor once connected to a russian mafia stock fraud. he was a significant player in the trump's so he hho tour proj. to attract internationals in a zoning, skirting scheme. seder spearheaded this trump tower project with michael cohen. in twist, seder promised to engineer the moscow deal with the help of russian president vladimir putin. in the summer of last year, the "new york times" published portions of e-mail exchanges between coen and seder, including this one dated november 3rd, 2015. seder wrote to cohen in part, quote, michael, i arranged for ivanka to sit in putin's private chair at his desk and

to bob miller's team he lies to the f.b.i. legal analyst jennifer britton told us the manifold must be provided with more details to be able to defend himself. when it comes to media stories in what the us mainstream media is choosing to choosing to play on this narrative specifically surrounding the man afford allegations a man for trials in the mueller investigations it's always the narrative that they're trying to play they're trying to show it is very confusing as to why none of the media stories that have come out have provided substance now in the articles that shows that manna for its defense attorneys had already responded to some of these allegations from the federal prosecutors stating that he lied yet none of the media stories seem to state that which means either that none of the details have been raised or that federal prosecutors didn't provide man a ford or his attorneys with specifics on how he lied there saying that he lied to federal prosecutors which was part of the plea deal which would now result in more f

>> but trump's words and lies are not a joke. pot of cold water here but this is serious. and i wonder how much the press is playing in to some of these lies. joining the panel now, danieldale washington correspond on the for the toronto star, a full time trump fact checker. and the author of the new book, enemy of the people. daniel, how are you doing it? you must be exhausted checking every word the president says. >> i am increasingly sleepy because the president is getting worse and worse. this is a big job. >> you made the point again and again that he is repeating the same things over and over again. it is not as if he is saying 100 different unhinged things a day. he is repeating the same lies over and over again every day. >> he is. that's part what have makes it easier as time goes on. because he is saying the same stuff he said in march 2017. what is different about this period, these months is that he has changed it up and introduced a number of whoers. complete fabrications that he had not been uttering before. these

he lied about donald trump's ongoing continued business relationships with russia. let's put that in context. if we think back to when the president stood up and said to the camera at a rally, russia, if you're listening, find the 30,000 missing e-mails. do we have to now conclude, he was talking directly to a business partner, somebody he aspired to do high-dollar value business with. that puts that statement, i think, in a whole different light. and the other takeaway, chris, is that when i saw reported today that michael cohen spent 70 hours testifying about what he knows about the president, i've got it tell you, i've tried entire cases from start to finish in less than 70 hours. i can't imagine the amount of incriminating information he provided to the mueller investigation and to the grand jury. so as dramatic as this is, it might still be only the tip of the iceberg. >> yes. obviously not just the amount of information that he has provided but you also look psychologically at what the impact is on this case. robert mueller, very close shop. he's plodding ahea

, that's based on lies. and so i hope that that piece doesn't get left out too, that it's about how do you -- how are black women able to do this, tell these stories within the context of this violent nation. >> i mean, i actually don't have anything more to say, anything important to say than what has justha been said except if, lik, when i read, rae, when you sent me your book a while ago to read, i mean, i think part of being a writer is also admitting when we haven invested in the lie, right? so i realized i had invested heavily into that lie that the left often says about, you know, slavery being our -- what is it, original sin? and then you just talked about indigenous sovereignty. like, i hadn't even -- i'm a professor, i teach kids, and i don't know if i've ever said the original sin is slavery, but i know i never said it was indigenous sovereignty which meant that if i was going to go forward as an artist, i needed that particular truth to guide me. but i thinknk it's also importat to admit when we

means they have proof of those lies. we still haven't seen that, and i think we will. i think mueller's standard whether it's in this, whether in a report is always going to be something he could use in court, and that's a very high standard. and it's why, you know, i think that really the things that mueller puts in writing or says are as close to the truth as we can get. and that's something manafort is just not familiar with. i just don't think he -- he doesn't think that -- he tries to act like there isn't such a thing as truth like someone else we know, and that's not the way it works. >> and harry, the next big development here will be when the special prosecutor as he puts it, sets forth the nature of the defendant's crimes and lies including those after signing the plea agreement. the special prosecutor has promised to make tohose availabe to the judge in real detail, and that's where we will learn a lot about what this is about. >> if it's not under seal, which is possibility. but yes, he'll give chapter and ver

he said he lied to protect his former boss. to follow the political messaging of individual one, who was donald trump and his adviser. i asserted all efforts ceased in january 16 when they kept going until june of 2016. he said i never spoke to individual one, that's referring to president trump regarding travel but i did. cohen did not answer questions on his way out of the court this morn. his attorney said cohen had cooperated and will continue to cooperate. his sentencing on this charge today, dana, could be wrapped into the sentencing for those other charges a couple weeks from now. we're told he faces several years in prison on all of the charge. he could do some serious stuff. >> dana: thank you very much. >> everybody in the world after july 22nd when asange2016, dumped all these e-mails on waserman-schultz, everybody knew what they were. >> dana: he tried to get in touch in hopes of using it again the clinton campaign. andrew napolatano saying robert mueller's theory on collusion is starting to come into focus. >> the

why would he lie about the lies that he lied about? >> none. he would be really reckless to lie to mueller's investigators when he already has guilty pleas under his belt. i do not believe his counsel, which is highly competent, would have ever allowed it. >> yeah. funny thing, though, i have to say, when i asked him -- i said, you know, michael, i saw your face when you were going towards the cars and all the media was there. what were you thinking? i was thinking, where's the car? >> i do not -- i do not envy his position. >> his position. >> and, remember, all of this -- >> yeah. >> for us, this is winding up. >> yeah. >> mueller's going to put out his report. we're going to see where it leads. we're going to see how much it offends the public's sensibilities and whether or not our congress wants to take action thereon. that's where it begins for us. he's going to be sentenced and life is going to be over for him, his wife, his kids, his family, his business, everything is going to change. >> one thing i will tell you, we can sit around and

to matt's point, he not only associated with lies, in this interview he admitted to the lies and saysadmitted them to mueller. so if he's already done all that and he can sign a statement that spares him jail time that is one more lie, why not do that? >> because he's a good liar. he turned the lie that president obama was not born in the united states into a "new york times" best-seller. but as your very effective cross-examination indicated, ari, he's not a great liar. so you did what an effective prosecutor does, you don't berate the witness, you let him incriminate himself with his own lying words. so to nick's point, no way he figured out that the wikileaks e-mail of -- podesta was forthcoming. again, nobody knew that and he doesn't seem like the brightest bulb on the tree to begin with so the mueller prosecutor is right. it would have been divine intervention for him to know that. the other thing is the forensic evidence. his own e-mail contradicts his story in that it says that he was in touch with julian assange. so, again, that's inconsistent with what he said. and the third

arrangements to go to russia apparently it was so far advanced that he was going to go to russia he lied about trying to set up a meeting between then candidate donald trump and russian president vladimir putin so now he is pled guilty to lying to congress that's a serious crime carries with it up to five years in prison as you mentioned the president is reacting in probably to no one's surprise he's doing so by calling his former lawyer his former fixer his former very close confidant a whole lot of names. that we heard. what he's trying to do is get a reduced sentence so we learned about a project that everybody knew it i mean we were very open with it we were thinking about building a building i guess we had a form it was an option other than what you call it we decided to strike it out differently not to do it there would have been nothing wrong if i did if i did do it it would have been a was fried fish. right so president truong accusing his former lawyer michael cohen of lying but this comes at a very difficult time for the trump administration doesn't it. it does and i think it's

cohen said he lied about the duration of their talks with russia, that he lied about trump and the trump family's awareness of what was happening with the deal. and cohen told the court that he told all of those lies for mr. trump, although he did not say he was directed by the president to lie. cohen explained some of his motives for lying. i was aware of donald trump's repeated disavouls are commercial and political ties between himself and russia, which included that any contact with russian nationals by the trump campaign or trump organization had all terminated before the iowa caucus. as we learned today, cohen was working the deal well beyond the iowa caucus. the deal was in the works all the way through june, which was after donald trump became the presumptive nominee. as mueller notes, cohen was briefing trump about it, talking to him and the campaign about traveling to russia. and oh, by the way, on june 9th, 2016 cohen was working onseting -- on setting up a visit to russia. the same day of the infamous new york city trump tower meeting with the russians, including the russian

they say manafort lied about? >> they did not indicate exactly what he lied about. but our team has seen him show up and spend hours nine time since his september plea agreement. we've seen his lawyers show up for short meetings which perhaps is an indication of the disagreement going on behind the scenes. and we don't know what this means for the special counsel. we know this was an important person for the special counsel to have cooperating with this investigation. we don't know whether this hurts their investigation or what information they may have shared with paul manafort and his lawyers and if any of that information could be making its way to other people, including, perhaps, the president's legal team. all of these are big questions that are now really in front of us as a result of this extraordinary filing from the special counsel's office tonight. >> evan perez, thanks very much. >>> joining me now former federal prosecutor jeffrey toobin, david gergen, john dean who served as richard nixon's white hou

he lied to congress. thing about donald trump is the fact that if you're not with him, you're against him, and you're a liar. if you are -- if it looks like you're backing him up, if you're roger stone, jerome corsi, paul manafort, you're telling the truth. and that's the kind of binary way that he sees the world. right now because michael cohen is not -- is testifying against him, the president is -- is going to say that about him. >> you know, david -- >> one point, this issue of like, look, what do the president's answers say? there's one way to find out. why don't they just release them? i mean, there's nothing barring donald trump from releasing his own answers to mueller's questions. release them, and then we can all see if he's corroborated or not. >> i agree. >> yeah. >> but -- >> rudy giuliani -- >> realistically, jeffrey, is there any chance the white house is going to do that? >> i don't think so, but you can draw your own conclusions for why they won't do it. i mean, i just -- all this -- myst

, has admitted he's lied, has lied in the past? how do you deal with that? how does a prosecutor, how does mueller deal with the fact that this is an untrustworthy person. how do you trust him now? >> its all about corroboration. >> they wouldn't go on this just with michael cohen going on and saying, guess what, i lied to congress. just take my word for it. >> absolutely. he's a liar, he's a turn coat and this and that. dana raised a good point. we have the answer to who's telling the truth and who's lying right in this document. the key thing that cohen said is this deal carried on into june of 2016. trump says he's a liar. there's text or emails quoted in here, black and white hard documents in may or june of '2016. its not that regard to resolve that dilemma and as prosecutors and agents, that's what we're looking for am i going to bank on this guy. >> asha, how does the president's attorneys deal with this because -- because -- >> i don't know. >> they have -- if this -- if these facts are there, if the corroboration is there,

has lied. what's going to happen because of the cohen plea is all the transcripts from the house committee are going to mueller. now they'll have to get in their happy little car and take those over to mueller's office and when they read those, we have a whole new avenue of discussion. let me just say one thing about the russian deal. the russian deal, the president -- he misled the american people -- >> but he wasn't under oath. >> doesn't matter. the article one was not about nixon being under oath. article one was about nixon misleading the country. what is the right thing for our country in terms of impeachment? the other is criminal. he was misleading the country, number one. number two, if it's true about the buzz feed article, that they offered a $50 million bribe to putin, hello, foreign corrupt practices act. it can be an illegal deal. depending on what shakes out about the $50 million bribe. >> so cynthia's point, sounds awful. but none of it actually came through fruition or presiden

paul manafort's lies in this case or the lies president trump often will tell is that they're often dependent on success on everybody else being stupid. and they're all dependent on the idea that everybody else who hears them is stupid. clearly the mueller team is not stupid nor are the american people when they hear repeated lies from the president that are easily checked. i mean, i guess i just don't understand the kind of low level of lying that's just really bad lying. to get caught time and time again like paul manafort has is incredible. >> it is incredible. but i would argue there's perhaps another way to look at this, and that is paul manafort is not stupid. he may be reckless but he's not stupid. and i would assume if he's lying is because there's something very big he's trying to hide from the prosecutors. very big. we don't know what that is, we don't on the outside here. but i would also assume while his chances are going to jail for a much longer time have definitely gone up, it's also possible that his chances of getting a pardon have also gone up if he's doing somethi

or is the truth as simple as they lied, because there was something to hide.en's admissions, not only intensify scrutiny on the president, but his family, cohen said he was in contact with the family about this deal well into the campaign. the time line not clear at this point, but it does suggest that trump and liz family were still pressing for a deal even in the lead up to trump becoming the presumptive nominee. and donald trump jr. told congress he knew very little about the deal. another issue, can cohen assist mueller in showing he knew plenty about that deal? the big question now, what else does cohen know that mueller finds credible? what do we know about cohen? he never went to the white house, but he was in trump's office when the campaign was largely run out of it for a long time, and he was with him many years before that, what the president may know about the trump tower meeting with a russian operative, when the wikileaks e-mail dumps were coming, could all be in cohen's wheel house. and remember, cohen can just be a corroborator, adding to what

his career is selling books based on lies. and, you know, selling access to his website based on lies. when they -- what happens when those people interact with the justice department where lying is a crime? that's what you're seeing in jerome corsi's case. >> cynthia, this e-mail, what's laid out in the document that nbc has obtained is mueller's stipulation they have e-mails of basically corsi -- of stone telling corsi get in touch with the wikileaks folks. even as corsi maintains i just guessed it. word is embassy plans two more dumps, pretty ambiguous. >> in the documents obtained by nbc news there are three instances where mueller identifies corsi lies to him. the amazing thing about it is he writes the e-mails and then deleted them and then his defense is i forgot about the e-mails. it's one thing to forget about an e-mail that's a groecery lis that didn't have anything to do with what the entire world was talking about for two years. but these are central to all we've been talking about. he deleted his and then he says

nobody lies about lying. that's a hard one to wrap your head around. >> shepard: you have never seen that? >> i have never seen that. i doubt many prosecutors have. if you're lying about lying to cut a deal, that makes no sense. if you're telling the truth in the first instance, you have no jeopardy. it's an odd one to lie about lying. the result of which could send you to prison. that's illogical. >> shepard: so excuse number 1 for what happened today is illogical and something you have never seen. >> i think that's a fair statement. >> shepard: jeff cramer live from chicago. thank you. >> certainly. >> shepard: ahead much more on michael cohen's guilty plea including reaction from capitol hill. top democrats are calling for a deeper look into the trump organizations financial ties to russia and ramping up the push to make sure that the special counsel is protected. that's coming up as reporting continues on this thursday afternoon. newday usa has helped thousands of veterans get the money they need for thei

and lied does it hurt the case? >> he's pled guilty to the crimes of lying but what appears to hurt the prosecutor they don't have the witness anymore, hurts the president because when they lay out to a federal judge what lies he told and what evidence they have to contradict that, that could be very upsetting to the president. >> shepard: the president every single day without exception said he laid into the prosecution as any number of things and not the least of which the overriding theme is he's trying to cast aspersions against the investigation such that when it comes out with something, whatever it is being the president can say, well, you never should have listened to them anyway. >> we all heard the president's anger and steadfast insistence neither he or anyone in the campaign have done anything wrong and bob mueller has played by the book, no leaks or exaggerations we know of. >> shepard: i want to follow-up on breaking news from the last hour. we heard a little bit and weren't going to mention it because