the two examples tom talked about where the libertas ecclesiastic, the liberty of the church, established in the investor crisis of the 11th century. liberty of the catholic church to have self-governing authority over its personnel. the ability to appoint its own bishops, not to be subject to the imperial rule of the holy roman empire, and later iterations of that, the rules by the kings of france or england. the libertas ecclesiastic is meaningful and incorporate liberty, and also in a meaningful way, the foundation of the religious liberty, but it is not primarily a liberty of individuals except insofar as you get an individual believing catholics who asserts their status of member of the church to protect them against royal punishment or royal execution for their continued fidelity. however, the other example tom offered us -- city air makes you free. asies were understood bastions of freedom. and that was partly a collective corporate fact. people who wished to be free of the rule of the 88 warlords and -- idiots warlords and charlemagne's warlords who made wishe feudal mobility, who