following pan am 103 negotiations with libya, libya decides to try to rectify that.how to those conversations address the nuclear program that had said gadhafi, if he followed through to dismantle his nuclear program could gain a respected place among nations and touted this example as saying i hope others will find an example in libya's action. there were ten related sites that were addressed. at the time we were considering libya to miasma them what messages sent to iran and they were extremely dismissive that there was any reverberations in terms of how they would perceive the vulnerability following an agreement to dismantle his program. i think that was tremendous to other countries we were working on. i just want to get your sense on that particular point. >> again, these are probably questions better directed to people like bill burns who were engaged in those negotiations back in the day. i would also say i think there is a sense at the time, and again i'm out of my lane, but there was a lot of discussion in the head of the first national council that led the

libya was not in the landscape. libya has a history like any other place and that history is one of fragmentation. what i've often said to people is that gadhafi was not the creator of libya's fragmentation but he exploited it using the oil wealth that he had at his disposal and it's important to remember that he deposed the king without firing a shot. when he -- he used that oil well much like a cartel word word would to bring into power. libya has always existed as julius caesar like golf, three separate entities, triple a tiniest. [inaudible] with different historical background which explained was often the different influences that play to this day in each of those regions from international partners. when gadhafi died, in effect, libya was a mafia without a don. that is the challenge that we have now. gadhafi is gone but his legacy remains. understanding this backdrop is very important comprehending the deep divide and political antagonism to follow the revolution which i concluded not long after my arrival in

we don't have a role in libya. i think we have a role in lib yachlt i think this hearing is an important indication by the congress that we do expect a role to be played. i want to just underscore the importance of representative inclusive government. there is no military solution. we've seen this too frequently and so many countries in that region. there is no military solution to libya. wee need an inclusive government. it includes all the different factions. we saw as the chairman pointed out that under the leadership of the gna we were able to make progress. that was important. but we also see with moscow's involvement mr. putin's involvement that general hefter in the eastern part of libya is causing all types of problems for civilian control of the country. and is also participating in activities that in my mind raise concerns about human rights violations and war crimes. so there is a role for us to play. if it's done right, we not only can have a representative government, the management of the oil resource

, we need a stable and unified libya. a divided country and in conflict would be -- would make civility worse. the u.s.'s job is -- the u.s. role -- sorry, and this is critical. president trump: i do not see a role in libya. i think the united states has right now enough roles. we are in a role everywhere. so i do not see that. i do see a role in getting rid of isis. we're being very effective in that regard. we are doing a job with respect to isis that has not been done anywhere near the numbers that we're producing right now. it's a very effective force we have. we have no choice. it's a horrible thing to say, but we have no choice. we are effectively ridding the world of isis. i see that as a primary role, and that's what we're going to do, whether it's in iraq or libya or anywhere else, and that will role will come to an end at a certain point and we will come back home and rebuild our country which is what we want to do. thank you oh, very much. i appreciate it. thank you. [captions copyright national cable satellite

libya, you fight isis, you fight in libya, not to mention al qaeda.d to imagine winning a war that the president has said that he wants to win without some u.s. role in libya. >> bret: more with the panel about that a news conference, health care, and what lies ahead next week in ..xt week in ♪ >> which one is more important do you do have, a vote on health care or a vote on a bill to keep the government open? >> i want to get both. are you shocked to hear that? we are doing very well in health care. we will see what happens. this will be great health care. it's evolving, you know, there was never a give up. the plan gets better and better and better. it has gotten really, really good. a lot of people are liking it a lot. we have a good chance of getting it soon. i would like to say next week but i believe we will get it. as far as keeping the government open, i think we want to give the government open. don't you agree? i think we'll get both. speak to the president today, that deadline is april 29th for. health care expecting to move forward next we

libya, you fight isis, you fight in libya, not to mention al qaeda. imagine winning a war that the president has said that he wants to win without some u.s. role in libya. >> bret: more with the panel about that a news conference, health care, and what lies ahead next week in congress. just ahead. in yours. preparation h. get comfortable with it. for being part of your life... all of your life. lls? for taking the guesswork out of grilling. the genesis ii comes with gs4 weber4s new high performance grilling engine. why do we grill? for living life with the people that fill you with life. go to weber.com for more information. at angie's list, we believe there are certain things you can count on, like what goes down doesn't always come back up. [ toilet flushes ] so when you need a plumber, you can count on us to help you find the right person for the job. discover all the ways we can help at angie's list. your insurance on time. tap one little bumper, and up go your rates. what good is having insurance if you get punished for using it? news flash: nobo

>> first of all, libya is not -- there's unspeakable violence going on in libya, you can't as an africanaround in the street, there's huge amounts of racism, that's what i'm saying. >> there's huge violence in congo or zimbabwe. >> that's why some people are fleeing those places. >> tucker: the europeans are putting a lot of money in controlling their borders in setting up programs training the libyan coast guard, what i'm saying is what you need to look at is a whole and what it means to these people, many of whom fled to their countries they couldn't stay. eritreans are nigerian spirits bill and i get it, i guess what i'm saying is there are two sides to this question. people live in western europe and have it for millennia and their countries are being changed and made it demonstrably worse by mass migration, don't they have a say in this? don't you recognize that they should have a voice too? these are democracies people get to vote to choose the policies they want, if they don't want this, why should they be scolded by you? >> they do have a vote they do have a say, and they want to

and unified libya. a divided country and in conflict would be -- would make stability worse. the u.s.'s job is -- the u.s. role, sorry, in this is very critical. >> i do not see a role in libya. i think the united states has right now enough roles. we are in a role everywhere, so i do not see that. i do see a role in getting rid of isis. we are being very effective in that regard. we are doing a job with respect to isis that has not been done anywhere near the numbers that we're producing right now. it is a very effective force we have. we have no choice. it is a horrible thing to say, but we have no choice. we are effectively ridding the world of isis. i see that as a primary role, and that's what we're going to do, whether it is in iraq or in libya or anywhere else. that role will come to an end at a certain point and we'll be able to go back home and rebuild our country, which is what i want to do. thank you all very much. i appreciate it. thank you. >> we were just watching president trump's joint n

should be doing more inside libya? >> when we say have not use the resources available, we need the support of national armies. over two years ago, i asked them to lift the embargo on arming the army or at least look at certain aspects to provide them with equipment to perform their task. so far, that hasn't happened. let's move forward and assist the national army take the task in performing the mission. if the libyans need and except to have peacekeeping forces, then we will not hesitate at all to assist our brothers in libya. having no extremism, extremists or having the libyan people captive to these armed extremist groups is something that we offer full support, and that is egypt's stance. >> bret: if the u.n. or u.s. doesn't step up inside libya, do you think that russia will? >> we would like to move positively because this is our region. the region does not have more room for instability. the more vacuum we have, the more danger. now there is competition, isis in syria and iraq. those fighters who are running a

a role in libya. i think the united states his right now enough roles. >> and as democrats debate their future, a pep talk from the woman who thought she would be the one counting down to 100 days. >> i know the election hit a lot of us hard. { laughter } >> but i can tell you this. even when it feels tempting to pull the covers over your heads, please keep going. >> i had that temptation this morning. how about you feel? with us to share their reporting, molly ball, carol lee, perry bacon and jackie. add to the report card the growing things of which president trump is flexible. today this tweet. no matter how much i accomplished of the first 100 days and it has been a lot including supreme court, media will kill. but it wasn't always a ridiculous standard. perhaps the president forgets his own version of the gettysburg address. >> i am asking the american people to dream big once again. what follows is my 100-day action plan to make america great again. it's a contract between donald j. trump and th

if it wasn't for nato intervention in 2011, libya would more likely look like syria today, so libya is bad now, but it could have been a lot worse in terms of the numbers of people killed. the failure in libya was the failure to follow up the day after. >> right. >> that wasn't on trump or republicans. that was on a democratic president. >> right, of course. >> obama. >> right. but that -- there's a continuity there i think is -- would be my point, right, that there's always a failure to follow up and has to do with what the u.s. is sort of structural and, again, this gets back to i think political capital and democratic will about what the actual democratic constituency is for long-range sustained interaction, whether diplomatic or financial or political in the region is and whether that can be sustained in a net improving way. all right. i'm going to thank everyone for your time tonight. that was a really illuminating, ken vogel, michael, shadi, sam seder. the rachel maddow show, that does it for "all in" this evening. "the rachel maddow show" will start right now with rachel. >> goo

and unified libya. a divided country and in conflict would be, would make the stability worse. the u.s.'s job is, the u.s.'s role is very critical? >> i do not see a role in libya. i think the united states right now has enough roles. we're in a role everywhere. so i do not see that. i do see a role in getting rid of isis. we're being very effective in that regard. we are doing a job with respect to isis that it has not been done anywhere near the numbers that we're producing right now. it is a. it is a very effective force but we have no choice. horrible thing to say we have no choice. we're effective ridding the world of isis, as our primary role whether in iraq, libya, or anywhere else. that role will come to an end at a certain point. we'll be able to go back home and rebuild our country, which is what i want to do. thank you all very much. i appreciate it. thank you. cheryl: we've been monitoring this press conference, this joint press conference between president donald trump and the italian prime

after libya, crossing the ocean, the same thing.ore you cross, i have to call back here again, talk to him, check my way for me. if he tell me 'you can leave' i will. >> finally the marabout gives amadou a chart and a date when amadou is to begin his journey. he's already sent hundreds of young men on their way, but his blessing doesn't come cheap. the marabout's phone, for example, was sent to him by someone who now lives in norway. the marabout is one of the wealthiest people of kafuta. one village after another is being bled of its young men. gambia is a big contributor to the flow of migrants from sub-saharan africa to europe. those who make it there, spur others on. a good friend of amadou's is now living in germany, and sending remittances back home on a regular basis his parents were able to start building this house. it will have eight rooms and be the biggest house in the village. >> oh absolutely, god. what i feel here if i am passing through this compound, i feel so excited because i also want to have these kind of things

libya was not a stable country when nato went into libya. there was a civil war going on.plemented the u.n. mandate. and we helped to stop the killing of civilians, which gaddafi regime was responsible for. if there's anything we can learn from the libya operation is that one thing is to implement the military operation as we did. but it's extremely important to stabilize the country afterwards. nato didn't have mandate, but, of course, the whole international community, including nato, the u.n., the e.u., all of us, have a responsibility for not being more present afterwards. and for me, that underscores the message about the prevention, it's better than intervention. and also the important of training local forces, enabling them to stabilize their own country. so we are now -- we are in dialogue with the libyan government or the government of national accord, and the prime minister there on how nato can provide support to build defense institutions, to help them stabilize their own country. it's not the easiest situation, but at least i think that's the best thing to do

, we need a stable and unified libya.ded country would stability worse. role is very critical. p.m. gentiloni: i do not seek -- mr. trump: i do not see a role in libya. i think the united states has enough rules. we have roles everywhere. i do see a role in getting rid of isis. doing our job with respect to isis. it has not been done anywhere near the numbers we are producing right now. effective force we have. we have no choice. a horrible thing to say. we are effectively ridding the world of isis. i see that as a primary role. that is something that we will do, whether in iraq were libya or anywhere else. att role will come to an end a certain point. we will be able to go back home and be built our country, which is what i want to do. thank you all very much. i appreciate it. thank you. we have just been listening to president trump along with a tiny prime minister paolo gentiloni during a press conference, taking questions from reporters. a lot of those questions focusing on security. not only of the two nations, but a

it ended up in a nato imposed regime change and libya today is a disaster.o the russians point at libya, a former effect of the ally of theirs, and they say, we will not allow that to happen. of course they have their own self interests in syria, they wa nt to own self interests in syria, they want to keep their base and they wa nt want to keep their base and they want their airbase, it is costing them but gives them a chip in the big game, they are a big player in syria, far bigger than america is 110w. syria, far bigger than america is now. they can decide the fake of assad in a way america cannot, without getting heavily involved militarily which they do not want to do. so they have that ability, they are so do. so they have that ability, they are so far sticking to an ally because they see the alternative is being chaos. frank, many thanks. vaccines save millions of lives around the world every year but there is a lahm from some doctors in america after suggestions president trump but a new vaccine safety committee to address already disproved claims tha

libya means combatting terrorism and isis? >> interpreter: american has played a very key role. first of all, to prevent the consolidation of an important basis for terrorism while diasha was undergoing defeat in syria, there were operations that were sustained by the u.s. that were successful. now the commitment must be political. and therefore in the co operation, the goal is to broaden the consensus for the tripoli government, which is recognized by the international community, but which must be able to count on a broader consensus. i believe that one clear goal should be that we need the region and countries like egypt and tunisia that are close to italy, we need a stable and unified libya, a divided country and in conflict would be -- would make stability worse. the u.s.' role is critical. >> i do not see a role in libya. i think the united states has enough roles. we're in a role everywhere. so i do not see that. i do see a role in getting rid of isis. we're being very effective in that regard. we are doing a job with re

after reaching libya, europe was just a boat ride away.velled with his sister, august in. forced onto separate boats, a boat ran into trouble. kelvin was rescued by it augustina drowned after her boat capsized. she left behind a young daughter. she was a student. she worked in the supermarket and the hospital. the salary she was receiving their mother still refuses to accept that augustina is dead. for people heading out the journey normally starts here, at a local bus stop. and if everything goes smoothly they can be in europe in just two weeks. most leave here because they think they have absolutely no prospect. nigeria's population is expected to double in the next 30 years and unless things change radically the number of migrants will almost certainly keep on growing. and this man should know. he once worked as a people smuggler. he says he helped smuggle dozens smuggler. he says he helped smuggle d oze ns of smuggler. he says he helped smuggle dozens of nigerians into europe. my last trip to libya i came across a number of graduates o

and we were left holding the bag in libya. if we wind up in the same place in syria, that's a far heavier bag, a far more difficult one to deal with. >> because libya, today, what, a failed state, there are terrorists all over the place in libya, including isis right now. gadhafi and his sons may be gone, but libya has turned out to be a disaster, right? >> that's right. be careful what you wish for. if we break it, we own it. when it comes to syria. but again, the main thing is, the president did do the right thing, what he -- what really matters now, wolf, is what comes next. there's an opportunity to leverage what we did, to really try to push for a more durable cease-fire, to stop the ongoing use of chemical or biological weapons and maybe to get assad to the table on a negotiation toward a transition. you've got to use this to leverage the russians. there's a real opportunity to do that. >> well, if you were still in the government right now, tony, what advice would you be giving this new american president and his secret

we've seen the same in iraq and libya.drawn lessons from history will prevail. as to who commits which crimes, and as an american colleague re ce ntly crimes, and as an american colleague recently said, time comes for everything and there should be priorities. and priorities result from washington that islamic state isa from washington that islamic state is a priority number one. and we are capable of overcoming islamic state without touching assad and his regime. everyone is convinced this isa regime. everyone is convinced this is a much more serious threat than the assad regime. so we are thinking in the same way and we should look for the common thread. and if islamic state could be overcome and destroyed without a change of regime, with the change of regime we could lose two islamic state. so let us could lose two islamic state. so let us be ruled by common sense and pragmatism rather than emotion. dear colleagues this concludes our press conference, thank you very much. we've been listening to a press conference betwe

involvement in libya.the president said, and i'm quoting, i do not see a role in libya for the united states. his argument is, look, the u.s. cannot be everywhere. and he clearly doesn't see a role for the u.s. in libya right now. is the president right on that? >> no. i think the united states has to exercise global leadership. i was with the security council ambassadors yesterday before they had lunch with the president and the message was very clear that u.s. leadership is critically important. america's strength is in our values and what we stand for. so when we talk about what we can do in libya to get a government that represents the people of libya so there isn't a void where isis can grow, if the united states is absent, then there is more likelihood you will see russia's involvement. if we see russia's involvement, it is not going to be good for our interests. you also see boys picked up by terrorists. that's not good. so we have a responsibility to be part. obviously, we will not be using america

squeezed together are 58 migrants who have set sailfrom libya.board a spanish coastguard boat. these people are just spanish coastguard boat. these people arejust some spanish coastguard boat. these people are just some of the reported 8300 pulled from europe's waters over the easter weekend. 0n 8300 pulled from europe's waters over the easter weekend. on monday, a german rescue ship docked at a port in sicily carrying more than 1000 people found in on seaworthy boats 30 kilometres adrift from the libyan coast. altogether we have 998 people who are male. we have 183 who are female. eight of them are pregnant. a28 persons are under 18 yea rs of pregnant. a28 persons are under 18 years of age. tighter controls and an eu deal has stemmed the numbers of migrants crossing from turkey to europe. at italy is seeing an increasing number of arrivals travelling from libya. ——... italy. it is believed the sudden surge is down to traffickers taking advantage of good weather in the mediterranean, but the journey remains perilous. these images show migrants be

the question was specifically about libya. but he expanded its scope. >> do not see a role in libya. i think the united states has right now enough roles. we're in a role everywhere. so i do not see that. i do see a role in getting rid of isis. we're being very effective in that regard. we are doing a job with respect to isis that has not been done anywhere near the numbers that we're producing right now. it's a -- it's a very effective force we have. we have no choice. it's a horrible thing to say, but we have no choice. and we are effectively ridding the world of isis. i see that as a primary role and that's what we are going to do, whether it is in iraq or in libya or anywhere else. and that role will come to an end at a certain point. >> george, do you want to take that one? >> the words spoken immediately before the president said we do not have a role in libya were spoken by the italian who said the american role in libya is vital. the president said, we don't have such a role. >> we said we are rolling everywhere. >> se

we do have that iraqi example as well as libya. they will be an admonition against trying to re-create similar examples anywhere else. again, we aree willing to achieve an absolute defeat of isis and other terrorists as a common objective . this has been reaffirmed today. we also have another political challenge. that is the solution to the syrian crisis. the u.s. and russia have been at the forefront of finding in the syrian conflict and with external players. today we agreed to continue to work bilaterally to push the multilateral trade forward. russia and the u.s. have other opportunities to have the community settle in various countries. to break the stalemate around the israeli-palestinian conflict, i'm going to be truthful. we also have another matter on our agenda and that is afghanistan. as you know, over the last two years, there has been resorting to seeking to rally an external support for the afghan settlement. those attempts, one of those avenues we pursued will take place on april 14. meeting has been scheduled. meeti

unified libya. -- would make stability worse. the u.s.'s job is -- u.s. role, sorry, in this is very critical. >> do not see a role in libya. i think the united states right now has enough roles. a role everywhere. i do not see that. i do see a role in getting rid of isiisis. we're being very effective in that regard. we are doing our job with respect to isis that has not been done anywhere near the numbers that we're producing right now. let's say it's a very effective force we have. we have no choice. it's a horrible thing to say, but we have no choice. we are effectively ruining the world of isis. i see that as a primary role. that's what we're going to do, whether it's in iraq or in libya or anywhere else. that role comes to an end at a certain point, and we'll be able to go back home and rebuild our country, which is what i want to do. thank you, all, very much. i appreciate it, thank you. >> that's the conclusion of the press conference between the president and the italian prime minister. the

within the political vacuum that is libya, smugglers and armed groups still thrive. the international organization for migration has discovered another horror story in the valley of tears. andigrants are being sold selling human beings is becoming a trend amongst smugglers and the smuggling networks in libya are becoming stronger and stronger. >> libya has emerged as the gateway for african migrants who hope to reach europe. migrants have been captured by armed groups, being held, beaten and later being auctioned off in a market like setting. >> if you go to the market, you can pay between $200 and $500 to get a migrant that will work with you on your daily jobs or support your work. many of them escape. many of them are kept in bondage and many of them are imprisoned inside an area where they are forced to work on a daily basis. >> the armed groups tried to extort money from their families to allow them to continue towards the libyan coast. without that, some are abandoned to die in the desert. many are packed on ill-equipped vessels. more than 600 are known to have

i heard he kind of analogized it to libya. libya, gadhafi was overthrown by his people. afterwards, after his removal, led to the chaos that we see in libya today. on the case of syria, today, it's much more complicated than it was three, four, fiver years ago. but there are still things that can be done. we should be increasing sanctions significantly on iranian and russian interests helping assad. this boeing deal should be canceled. the second thing that we need to examine is how can we suppress the air defenses of the assad regime? it may include coalition use of force to make sure that the operations from the air are not happening and by the way keep our troops safe. >> you can't do that if russia is not on board, can you? >> what's that? >> you can't do that if russia is not on board, can you? >> if those air strikes are being used not just to attack civilians and innocents on the ground, but threatening the over 500 american service men and women on the ground in syria, we have a national security interest in protecting them. that should have been in play in this

foreign policy in kosovo and iraq and libya, and sudan, to say that the u.s. seems to have this fixation with ousting dictators and countries end up in much worse shape afterwards. tillerson giving brief and not nearly as aggressive answers as lavrov did. he didn't seem to want to come looking for a fight. lavrov was very comfortable looking for a fight and taking the argument very much to the u.s. >> melissa: yeah. >> i thought lavrov was noticeably more aggressive and, frankly, dominated the news conference. >> melissa: he did hit very hard, especially on that point. he went through the litany of history of what has happened when secular deck taters have been deposed and how badly that has worked out for the u.s. tillerson was clear on what he thought assad's future role was. let's listen to that an get your reaction. >> we did discuss at length the future role for assad, whether it be in a future political process or not. clearly, our view is that the reign of the assad family is coming to an end. it is possible that the threshold necessary to charge indivi

and its allies, iraq, libya. they say they are not willing to let that happen. they have been told they may have to go without electricity. they my be isolated from the rest of the world. the reason is they have to have nuclear weapons to protect this country and its leader kim jong-un from the threat of envision from the united states. some believe this regime is ready to push the button on its sixth na sixth nuclear test which would be a show of force around the world. >> thank you so much. appreciate that. straight ahead, tension in the trump administration as a third person is removed from the national security council. we'll have a live report. plus thoughts, news, parent company will open an investigation into harassment claims against prime-time tv host bill o'reilly. we'll discuss straight ahead. p, to friends at more banks then ever before. you got next? chase. helping you master what's now and what's next. i wanted to know where i did my ancestrydna. the most shocking result was that i'm 26% native american. i had no idea. it's opened up a whole new wo

what i mean by that is that barack obama when he took action in libya or in december 2015 when he aligned 34 islamic nations to join other european allies in attacking isis and bombing them in just as spectacular a raitt raid as the attacks that you have been showing frequently in that department of defense clip. president obama made sure he had both international and regional support for the action. he made sure that there was an assessment that the deployment of force would have an impact, and that the, you know, that the ripple effects of this were contained and looked at. and that we had allies wrrking with us. that isn't the case here. donald trump has certainly sent a signal that he can take a step unilaterally without coordinating with allies, without necessarily doing -- and take an action. and we are going to have to see down the road where that unilateral impulse, that nudge is perceived like countries like china, he is sitting with xi

iraq and libya both.se arguments are made for humanitarian reasons to go in and overthrow dictators and launch these wars. we have seen in both of those examples how the iraqis people and libyan people have suffered far more as a result of our wars and more people have died and the countries have been destroyed and counter productive toll our interest directly and terrorist groups like isis and al-qaida have grown longstronged stronger. whether it is senator mccain or president trump who are advocating for an escalation of this counter productive regime change war, they're not recognizing the ov truth which is that it will result in a worse off situation for the syrian people, more deaths and destruction and refugees and result in our enemy, terrorist groups like al-qaeda and isis growing stronger. >> look, we have got to look at the facts and understand exactly what happened. you can talk about a number of hypothetical situations. the united nation was debating and drafting resolution that would launch a

iraq, libya and the problems that we've have in egypt it was not for obama's policies. the thing that has happened here began to happen last week we never knew for sure where the trump administration was going to move in terms of america's global leadership. the historical traditional role that we've played where they cannot pull back and be more isolationist. that is over. the fact is america is reassuring the allies in the far east that we are going to exercise our global leadership role and we will have their back. we will protect america's interest and our allies interest. that is a fact. it is no longer a debatable subject. with secretary tillerson going after him for the kind of barbarian that he is he wants them and there. going after him on ukraine he said, that the agreement for audience that may not be familiar with that the piece agreement that they have. they have never agreed to it. in fact agree to it on paper and tillerson said to them unless you abide by the accord pull your separate forces out of ukraine we will not well not be able to improve our relat

you want to take libya? after gadhafi was killed? lindsey graham and joe lieberman, we begged them, got to rebuild the country. if you walk away bad things happen. we walked away thanks to barack obama. as far as iraq is concerned, we had it won. thanks to the surge. david petraeus, one of the great generals of our time. it was done, and what did we do, pull everybody out. we pulled everybody out, and we predicted what was going to happen. wolf, the facts on the ground are what dictated those failures and failure of leadership for eight years, and we had both of them won, especially the war in iraq where david petraeus and ryan crocker, they won, and -- and iraq was doing fine, and then they decided to pull everybody out. by the way, afghanistan, in 15 years later, the -- our commanding general in afghanistan says what? we're in a stalemate. we're in a stalemate. why? because their strategy was don't lose, okay? we can win in afghanistan. we could have won -- we did win in iraq and we could have maintained that if we had had a -- i'l