other than, most african-americans told lincoln we're not leaving the country, lincoln. we are americans. the vast majority were born here. we are not africans. we were born in america. we are demanding our rights as americans in our society. so lincoln's plan runs aground because the two groups that have to implement it do not want it. meanwhile, many of the pressures are building for a new policy on slavery. congress is moving ahead of lincoln. i'm not going to, you know, go through all those. they apoloish slavery in washington, d.c., they abolish slavery in the territories, they pass the confiscation act of july 1962 which opens the door to freedom to many slaves of confederates and other things are building too. one of the pressures leading lincoln toward e emancipation. well, first of all, the failure to win the civil war. for the first year or so the north is not making great progress. the war is being fought as army versus army without touching toe basic infrastructure of the south,i.e. slavery. and it becomes clear that shave ri must become a target. second of a

he won the lincoln prize for lincoln at cooper union. and has also won an award four times, the neiman's freeman and three achievement awards from the lincoln group of new york. he is currently also the senior vice president for external affairs at the metropolitan museum in new york. he has a day job. [laughter] >> well, today's book that we're featured is his newest and latest called "abraham lincoln and the great secession winter." simon schuster publishes it and it's $30. james mcpherson rightly rights, this is bristling with new information and key insights, unquote and that's why it's the latest edition to the essential lincoln bookshelf which we have on our own website for the bookshop. now, the reason, harold, that you're signing alone is that one of the first times you came into my shop with two other authors, i found them in the back signing each other's name. so i thought i better have you alone. >> you have to explain that. first of all, it was 24 years ago we were crazy and young people and second of all, you served us a lot

following lincoln there were people who were lincoln admirers who had become exasperated with lincoln who thought johnson might actually be better. it is hard to imagine that because lincoln is considered one of the best presidents and johnson is considered the worst. to go from best to worst in what terms there, but he dashed the hopes of many because he did not rise to the occasion. the thesis of my book is the story of anti johnson is the story of missed opportunities. for the country, for himself the leader of the list opportunity for great is for himself. most people think presidents have to have a war in order to be great. he came after the war but he had something that is certainly the moral equivalent of war, reconstruction. to try to figure out what was going to happen to african-americans who have been freed by the civil war and down in the south in a place where peace 0 -- people look upon them as their property or their property to be at some point in the future. a great amount of hostility was unleashed after a war in the south against the freedmen. andrew johnson had the

lincoln saw history moving

more than lincoln's advisers.nd so he would actually run his speeches by william slade. >> host: why? >> guest: he ran the gettysburg address by him. they spent the night before the event going over the speech, and lincoln, basically, gave the speech to william slade and got feedback. and it's very interesting that this was an african-american former slave who the president valued so much because he felt, the president felt he understood the country so well. and if it made sense and resonated with william slade, lincoln felt it would resonate with everyday americans. and it was a very fascinating relationship. that's the kind of thing you can pick up. >> host: let's talk about elizabeth. she was a fascinating woman who was a seam stress, as you mentioned, who had emancipated herself. she had been an enslaved woman. >> guest: right. >> host: and she self-emancipated. she felt so strongly about the rules of the game that she actually insisted on paying for herself as opposed to running away. >> guest: right. >> host

that of course she had lost a son in the civil war, the lincoln's lost their son, willie to disease while they were in the white house and since they both lost sons, elizabeth and mary todd lincoln had this bond, and it was very close, and mary todd lincoln would take elizabeth keckley with her on trips and around the country of course being a seamstress, it helped because mary todd lincoln was a real close horse and looked to my clothes sometimes exceeding the budget she was supposed to hold to, but another interesting thing i found that trusted that she would confide in her assessment very blunt and candid of her husband's cabinet, as generals, very much down on general grant, mary todd thought she was with the call a butcher and the soldiers involved, and then as time went on as you say, elizabeth keckley did write about her experiences, and this was seen as a breach by mary todd lincoln of confidence as it really wasn't anything like we would think of today as a tell-all book but it did give some insight into the white house and i think mary todd lincoln felt that was something

lincoln never was an advocate of equality. there should the system created so that african-americans and freed sleeves could be find another country that they would go to. so he wasn't talking about them in the united states, but was thinking of ways and there was a famous case where he actually met with a delegation of african-american leaders who actually organized a trip from three or 400 african-americans to an island off haiti to set the country there. it didn't work. one-third of them died and came back as idea and encouraged the folks to do it. so it wasn't in favor of social ecology although it was in favor of course of evolution. was lead in the first president to invite african-americans to the white house as delegates as people he sat across the table with? i know he met with both. tubman and frederick douglass had any prior presidents have african-americans in the white house to sit down with? >> guest: no, i don't believe so and leaned and of course have a soldier and a trip to the white house as well, another abo

lincoln tos.spenc er. this artt would betra himself as lincoln in the oilaintings thate -- what porty hielf asincoln in the oil paintings th he did. is own for many of the illustrations, especlly erican rruitg post with cle m. this ilincn waiti forews fromhe sond battle of bl run in augustf 18. when ias the cef justice of rhode island, they work -- there were some who would criticize for using too much lankanreat be was -- too muclincn. there was a time when lincoln w nevermentned. i finally gave up and ifinally but lincoln ba into my speeches. this was the clateral libry, ouseco library ctaing civi war ad other books aut lincoln contemporaries. we wer just in theincoln brar itself. the library contain about 12,000 bks a pamphlets and weave storage about 20,000 clipngs that help in our sear when we ite d lecturaboulincoln. here he is. e story of abham lincoln. st with me now. its very heartening t share th knowledge a the collectio with young people and ol people, t. but young people who e learning abo 10

lincoln was never an advocate of equality. he was always thought that there should be some system created so that african-americans and freed slaves could find another country that they would go to your so he wasn't talking about them living in the training. but was thinking of ways anything this case where he met with a delegation of african-americans, leaders who organized a trip from three, 400 african-americans to an island off of haiti to set up a country there. it didn't work. the third of them died and he came back. but lincoln fully embraced this idea and encourage these folks to do it. so he wasn't in favor of social equality, although was in favor of course of abolition. >> host: was lincoln the first president to invite african-americans to the white house as delegates? i know he met with both gary tuchman and frederick douglass but had any prior present had after americans in the white house to sit down with? >> guest: i don't believe so. lincoln had the soldiers of troop to the white house. another abolitionist. b

to lincoln that's housed to the library of congress. lincoln was not a great preserver of his own materials but right after his election, he hired a secretary. and he was a great clerk. is and a compulsive attendant to

from lincoln last spring, that brought about with the end of instrumental music. so i just wanted to share with you that i do find it very painful that we have a high school of 2,500 students with no music being offered. we have students coming in from very strong band and orchestra programs who don't have a music program for them. there's a large amount of instruments available. there's a large library of sheet music available and i'm here. so i would love nothing more than to return to lincoln and rebuild instrumental music. thank you. >> hi. i'm diana gomez. i'm the band teacher at pricido middle school. i spoke to the board several times about seven years ago as the president of a.i.m., association of unstrubblingters of music, which was the last time we were active in trying to save music programs. that's when all the music teachers were pink slipped. so i remember speaking with you personally at that time, being with frustrated at the decision making because we no longer have any kind of a mandate that music or the arts are going to be supplied at different

yet lincoln also consistently argued for certain kinds of racial equality. as he said in columbus ohio, in 1859, quote, there's no reason in the world why the negro is not entitled to all the natural rights enumerated in the declaration of independence, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. how are we to understand these contradictory ways of talking about the quality? and what happened to them once the question of black equality was no longer theoretical as it was before the war but practical after emancipation. answer in the questions became one of the central goals of my research. republicans and putting lincoln every civil equality and equal treatment by law and implicitly security and property and they believe all people should have this formal equality before the law. most distinguish between this kind of equality and a political equal the which refer to the right to vote and usually to hold often. moderate republicans including one can tend to support civil equality but not political equality for african-americans. here is where the

lincoln waseverentned and i finally gave up and e passion was so overwheing that i finally put lincoln bk in my spehes. this is the collatel lrary our cond library, containing civil r another books about clinton cntemporaries. we were jt in linln library itself. the library contains about ,000 books and pamphle and we have about 20,000 clippings that help in our rearc and write and research -- and cture abo linln. >> the story o abram lincoln stay witme n. >> it is very heartening to are yournowlge with young people, a old people, too. young people who are learning about them f theirst time, as di to know tt this gacy is bein carried on a connued wi youeoplwho reay are theuture, it isery sasfyi to me. ere is th aftlife, whatre we going t do with it when we leavthis earth? we nt it to g to one institution, schl th has o lioln or civil war llecon. >> frank williams, foer chiejuste of rhode island. mar to join us as o civil r sees continueso a trip of o of the most fous of dividing lines. wh itcometoilesnes, apri the 1hs th busiest days on the cendar. day rks two maj achievementsn spe. 30

then on sunday at 7:00 a special show all proceeds going to lincoln high school.course you'll be able to find these show times posted on nbcbayarea.com. we're live in downtown san jose tonight, george kiriyama, nbc bay area news. >> she is very funny. it'll be fun on sunday night nar show. >> yeah i'm looking ford that. turn things over to jeff ranieri in the weather center. okay, you're dressed, all dressed in a suit. no more shorts but do you have your orange tie. >> i did, yeah i couldn't let the giants down. even though it was tough for them throughout this season, the opener had to pull out the orange. we were out there earlier today. the san francisco giants at the home opener actually raising some money by opening up the stadium for people to come and view that game. all right let's take a look at those record temperatures. the hottest condition here in northern california was napa at 87. that record said way back in 1966. richmond also 83 and san francisco airport topped out at 80. some other very warm spots down into the south bay. warmest spot was los ga

george mcgovern did lincoln. it is a mix of historians and non historians looking at these presidencies telling the basic stories but also giving your own individual spin on it. and he asked me to do the johnson book and i guess he figured i would put my individual spin on it. i agreed to do it because arthur asked me to endow ahead great respect for him. a new him from the papers of thomas jefferson on the advisory committee and paul was the general series editor of the series, was my editor on the book i did with vernon jordan. you know how it is when friends ask you to do things. who asked me to do this. i put aside my misgivings. i knew it was a fascinating topic. so much material and very rich but i wondered if i would be able to curb my natural feelings of antipathy about living at this particular period in american history and i agreed to do it. that was many years ago. this book is long overdue. in between saying i would do that i wrote monticello which took a lot of time and energy and i came back to thi

so i was wondering why they never got back to lincoln or where there was never a prominent editorial thing saying here is what the delegation is going to say. and so, basically i ended up feeling like i needed to write this. probably to correct the record and pearly to tell some of the interesting things i found about a debate among lack washingtonians about who should comprise the delegation in the first place. who would get to go to this meeting, what did they represent, which of their position be? and so, basically my research on the history of washington in the city led me to kind of uncover some new aspect of that famous lincoln story. kind of pose from the perspective of the delegation. >> my question is about people and their movement. i have recently read that the book, the fiery trials, when lincoln got to washington in 1847, that the black population were about 70% freed. you stated that in 1860, the city was about 60% freed. i know that statistics lie, so my question is, who is moving into washington in the 1850s among the black population? we know about the civil war peri

and lincoln heard about it. and lincoln heard about it and finally said none of this arresting him, we will send a train down. they couldn't -- you could. you send a train and a tender and a few soldiers to read this and a train and picked him up and brought him back to the white house. at this time he's just a -- he's just covered with dirt and grime. and he noticed someone -- lincoln's whole cabinet is sitting there and he walks in the room and he knows most of these people, but he is just disreputable appearance that they don't recognize that he finally tells the story. when it's all over, he says i have a message from general grant for you. before he left, grant had taken them as light and he said if you actually get through and you see lincoln tell him this time there's to be no turning back. and so the two of them are together. i mean, wing's is a very short guy and lincoln is this extraordinarily tall man. and he tells this story to lincoln. he says general grant wants me to tell you this time there's no

when lincoln dies, when lincoln gets assassinated the first person mary looks for is elizabeth. both of them had lost children, the lincolns lost a son while they were in the white house, and during that same period or elizabeth had lost her son in the war. so they bonded at several different levels. and then after the war when mary lincoln -- similar to dolly madison -- was on really hard times, and this was in the era when after you become president you become a gazillionaire like now. if you didn't come in rich, you weren't necessarily going to get rich coming out of it. so mary lincoln actually had really hard times, and elizabeth was there for her quite a bit of the way. elizabeth also wrote a book, some of which created strains between her and mary lincoln because mary felt that there were too much personal information that was put into the book. now, the other thing about elizabeth was that the relationship with the lincolns, she also was very instrumental in organizing and mobilizing people who had left the plantations, basically escaped from slavery during the war and w

craig simmons on lincoln's admirals and the last lincoln conspirator. john's flight from the gallows. it's a very interesting book on john serrat and he was on trial and, of course, his mother was hanged. on monday, november 10th at 6:00 pm you can go to our website virtual book signing.net you'll see listings of all this and we'll have a pulitzer winner james mcpherson with his new book and that should be very interesting. we're going to take virtual book signing on the road so if you want to see live james mcpherson, we're going to be at the mccormick freedom museum here in chicago. and i hope you'll all join us there or via the internet as well. and saturday, december 6th, at noon, central time, michael burlingame is coming in with a multivolume work, abraham lincoln, a life, a first multivolume since sandberg and i think this will be a fascinating large work that we will all be contending with. he's gotten into many new material especially in newspapers that he's buying and in other others and it might be a little contentious and i think it will be

you can tell by an overweighted in lincoln.ad a bit of a discussion because i just could not figure out what to get. i have lincoln's first inaugural, the gettysburg address, the emancipation proclamation, and the second inaugural. i could not figure out, if you're really trying to cover american history, what to you leave out? i left the mollen. when you look at the transition, his wording, and how he changes as a person from his first inaugural which is clearly a very legalistic case of why we should not go to war but we probably have to. if you read it it basically says , you know, the states have seceded. we know we will end up at war. i don't want to go to war. of which we would go to war but here is the legal of one of its calling to happen. if you like that and live to the gettysburg address, less than two minutes. never using the word i remain an kamala never talked about himself. he moves from the founding of our nation to the future. wraps it all in this great promise for tomorrow. he was not the keynote speaker. edwa

she's a lincoln high zbrad class of 2000. >> you want to do anything in arts you probably go to lincolnigh school. to so to hear that that school lost its funding for arts, we definitely have to do something. >> johnson is hoping to turn her jokes into cash, every dollar raised from her sunday show will go 100% to lincoln. >> i'm really pleased that she's coming back. >> that's music to lincoln high's program director. >> it's tremendously touching that she wants to help out. that she cares enough about her schools and this area that she came home to us to do that. >> this year lincoln lost funding for the first time in school history, forcing the department to start fundraising, next year it looks even more challenging, as they're hoping to raise more than 6,000 to save the arts. >> it was these classes that kind of gave me hope. >> johnson hopes she can inspire the next generation of artists by giving back. >> if i put myself in their shoes, like the student's shoes, i know how hard it can be for some kids. so to be able to say, look, i did it. >> that is very cool. angela's fund-rais

i think everyone thinks they know the story of the lincoln assassination.turns out most of us don't. there were multiple attacks. didn't know there were hundreds rounded up. didn't know there was a military trial, eight civilians put on trirblg a mother who ran a boarding house, didn't know any of that and found that fascinating and she was on trial likely for crimes committed by her own son and at the center was this extraordinary mother-son story about a mother abandon by her own son, and a surrogate son, a union colonel, played by james mack voi, as you said, who comes to the rescue of a southern woman. that, i thought was an extraordinary story and i think it's a timeless story. >> suarez: are you proposing another theory of how it really happened, or seeking to right a historical wrong, or retell a story that perhaps isn't well understood? what's the main thrust here? >> well, the main thrust was at the center was this extraordinary mother-son story. and human story. there happened to be parallels to the present never intended. i wrote this in the firs

>> the second inaugural address of abraham lincoln.t moves me to tears because you can tell how hard the war was that we believe in the same guide and read the same bible but this is where we are as a nation and you can almost feel his heart breaking into but in the end he is very merciful thou judgment and once this to work together towards a bright future. >> with your interactions with people of liberal persuasion where it is coming ground you can connect with material in the book? am i that is a great question. we have is an american but not conservative but we have and will k and his speech is incredible and we need to look at people who reach out to others to include them as role models. jfk, fdr but the idea is to have americans stories. all of those asked us to do more and let government solve your problems but that was not they're idea but how do we figure out together? and this is an idea of a to have a lot of opportunity. but over the publicly and it was made public for people and organizations better conservation minded bei

there's a stray line in a letter, i killed lincoln off at noon today.so many years with him. and then so he ved in th way. and i think that's, you know, the war was so complicated. there are many battles i didn't understand until i read foote. and there are, you know, i know a lot of people who will tell you that the sweep of the war which wasn't a to b to c, it was all over the place as you know. i didn't really understand. >> charlie: here is foote at this very table talking about abraham lincoln not his literary quality. here it is. >> it's always difficult to talk about a genius was so much of it can't beaccounted for. there's no question he's our greatest president. i have no doubt about that at all. >> charlie: because this. >> his skill at political maneuver, they alws talk about slick willie amused me. slick willie reported going to school is one of the slickest that ever lived. >> charlie: slickest in what way. >> he could maneuver around people. he cld doing i can't do and i' bet you can't. he had a man sitting there talking to him andaw the m

i have lincoln's first and not grow. i have the gettysburg address, the emancipation park in with -- park proclamation. what do you leave that? i couldn't figure it out. when you look at the trends of the wording and how he changes the person from his first macroinaugural which clearly is very legal case of why we shouldn't go to war but we will probably have to come if you read the first inaugural it says you know state has succeeded. we know it will end up at war. i don't want again about war. i wish it wouldn't go to war but here are the legal outlines of what is going to happen. if you look at that and then he moved to the gettysburg address in less than two minutes, and 287 words never using the word i adore me. never talking about himself. human from the founding of our nation to the future and wrapped it all in this great promise of tomorrow. an unbelievable speech. wherever it was he was a well-known order. he stood or two hours. don't worry i'm not speaking for two hours today. as you can imagine lincoln getting

then also marks into lincoln because lincoln was a good speaker as well. he could be very, very -- well, he was sarcastic and aggressive and people hadn't seen anything like it. so his fame grew. people suggested he might stand for office, which he did and he was very ambitious. good businessman, even though he started up working at the right kind of investment in the actually bettered himself financially. any women to politics and climb the ladder for mayor, every single one of the latter he was on it up to the president. so it's an interesting comment on american life that someone could start out as blue as he did and go to where he went. so even though i'm somewhat hard on him and the book there's no question he was an extraordinary person. i think my editor and he's done all of these. he's edited all of the ones that have been done so far. all of these people are extraordinary to make it to the presidency. it's not like someone is sitting around one day and says okay, going to the white house. there is something there. other people see something and ot

did we drag them out on lincoln with horses? were we able to put out some rails. there's a good deal of bodies when you say 50 or 100. >> that's a good question i was really struggling with. well, for one thing, the golden gate park, the roads, the park commissioners were very jealous about. they didn't want anybody to use the golden gate park roads for commerce or transporting things. they wanted to keep it for recreation. so for a long time i thought maybe they used that streetcaroline on lincoln way, used the rail, somehow put the cars on some kind of fladbed rail thing, brought them out to the edge and dragged them across the sand, perhaps on sleds or something. i finally came across what heyman did in an article. he actually somehow talked the commissioners into using the golden gate park roads. so he -- remember, the apparatus, most of the machinery, is taken out of these cars which makes them a lot lighter. they're mostly wood at this point. they're probably brought out, pulled by horses through golden gate park road. then in 1892, the great highway gets im

>> my favorite book is lincoln's second inaugural. i mean, it moves me to tears when i read it because you can tell how hard the war for him. he talks about, you know, we believe in the same god. we read the same bible and pray to the same god. this is where we are as a nation hopefully it will be over soon and you can almost feel his party breaking in two but in the end he's very merciful without judgment and wants us to work together in reaching for a bright future. >> in your interactions of people with liberal persuasion. what's your common ground you're able to connect with especially with this book. >> what are the common ground in terms of talking of liberals especially in terms of this book. it is american's book it is a conservative book although they happen to be more conservative but we have mlk is in the book and his speech is an incredible speech and again, i think we need to reach out to people who reach out in the others and include in the movement as roll models. jfk is in there and fdr is in there as well but the idea

then also marks into lincoln because lincoln was a good speaker as well. he could be very, very -- well, he was sarcastic and aggressive and people hadn't seen anything like it. so his fame grew. people suggested he might stand for office, which he did and he was very ambitious. good businessman, even though he started up working at the right kind of investment in the actually bettered himself financially. any women to politics and climb the ladder for mayor, every single one of the latter he was on it up to the president. so it's an interesting comment on american life that someone could start out as blue as he did and go to where he went. so even though i'm somewhat hard on him and the book there's no question he was an extraordinary person. i think my editor and he's done all of these. he's edited all of the ones that have been done so far. all of these people are extraordinary to make it to the presidency. it's not like someone is sitting around one day and says okay, going to the white house. there is something there. other people see something and ot

when the fighting did finally stop, lincoln's union forces had won. 600,000 americans died. slavery was abolished. the union held. question, is n from the mainland. ofofofofofof secede. item, texas. 18% would vote to secede. texas republican governor rick perry hinted at the possibility of a texas secession. "i believe the federal government has become oppressive. i believe it's become oppressive in its size, its intrusion in the lives of its citizens, and its interference with the affairs of our state." rich, what do you think of the condition of the union? >> i think it's pretty strong, john. i say vermont. >> why vermont? >> definitely. vermont other texas any day of the week. >> i say -- >> so the union is okay? >> right. >> this is semi-comical but semi-serious question. lot of movement, but there's going to be no geographic secession, that's out of the question. it was decided in 1865. but there are a lot of movements. you mentioned hawaii, there's a movement to establish and went through part of congress to establish a state legislature which was people of hawaiian bl

. >> jackson -- ironically jackson, of course, is the guy lincoln loathed. the reason why he gets into the whig party is he hates jackson. and jackson became his role model he reads jackson's the nullification message. they compare him to jackson unfavorably. it's astonishing what a crisis

thomas jefferson of course is the great jefferson scholar but garrey did a book, george mcgovern did lincoln - get so the sort of mix of historians and long historians looking at the presidency is telling the basic story, but also giving your own sort of individuals been, and he asked me to do the johnson book and i guess that he figured i would put my individuals been on it. i agreed to it because arthur asked me and i had great respect for him. i knew him from the papers of thomas jefferson and we were both on the advisory committee for that. and also because paul was the editor who's also the general series editor for the

the president was at the lincoln memorial talking about cooperation between republicans and democrats in congress. i don't think this is really a great model of cooperation. coming precariously close to shutting down the government, endangering pay for our soldiers who are fighting in afghanistan and iraq. over tens of billions of dollars and big ideological policy differences when, as mike talks about, next year's budget, dealing with huge issues like entitlement spending, the differences are much wider, both ideologically and the numbers are so much bigger.

we talked a lot about lincoln and saw lincoln documents. then he had a very surprised q. he wanted to see documents of the precedence apparently really fascinates him, john quincy adams so we showed -- >> did he explain his interest? >> well, he didn't beyond the point that he was fascinated with the father son aspect of this adams senior -- bush senior, bush junior. >> i see. did he comment on anything like transparency of his from the documents? >> well, we tried to explain that we're an access agency and that americans are entitled to see the their country. i think in fact that i've been invited to come to bag dand see if we can't bring a delegation to advice them on organizing the archives which we may do. >> you've had an awful lot of expeence before the archives with the arrival of measure of freedom to russia. the yeltsin and earlier in fact when you headed up the center for democracies, is that correct? >> 18 years you. >> are kind of an expert on freedom. >> not an expert -- >> you know that the iraqis -- did he bring any of this signing a constitution this year?

." >>> oakland city leaders have unveiled a new surveillance system at the lincoln center. they were installed after concerns about a reduction in police patrols. the success of a similar system in chinatown encouraged members of the asian advisory committee on crime to install the cameras at lincoln square center. more than 2,000 people visit the center and those visitors should be protected. >> it's not easy to get police patrolling in the area. we're hoping this camera system will be. >> meantime, crime statistics released by police show citizens in central oakland experienced less overall crime in the first quarter of this year compared to loose year. there were 144 fewer violent crimes including assault, rape and shootings. property crimes were down by 175 cases as well as burglaries down by 109 cases. while the news is encouraging there were two more murders and more vehicle thefts during that period. >> san jose congresswoman is demanding an investigation in the actions of federal immigration officials claiming they lied when they said counties and states could opt o

the president was at the lincoln memorial talking about cooperation between republicans and democrats in congress. i don't think this is really a great model of cooperation. coming precariously close to shutting down the government, endangering pay for our soldiers who are fighting in afghanistan and iraq. over tens of billions of dollars and big ideological policy differences when, as mike talks about, next year's budget, dealing with huge issues like entitlement spending, the differences are much wider, both ideologically and the numbers are so much bigger. so the country faces real problems. this went to the 11th hour. this is hardly a bright moment for any side in washington. >> and continuing on that point, as we look to this debt ceiling battle to come, has either side been weakened by what we just went through this week? >> well, again, i think the well has been poisoned. i think the two sides are more entrenched. there seems to be not a great deal of desire to legislate in washington, which is why lawmakers are elected and why they come here is to legislate and compromise. rep