now, you look at people, like linda wertheimer. people in television had a thing. they had a swagger. you could feel it. the radio people are sort of mousy and quiet and self-effacing. now, you walk down to npr -- no. these are people. it happened, i think, for a combination of reasons. but suddenly closing your eyes and hearing something became totally not just a thing people want to do, but a thing people seem increasingly to prefer. from the perspective of 30 years of watching it -- you were there at the beginning. >> it has a number of qualities that i think that -- like a lot of listeners to the show i do, "this american life," have told me there is a wave of shows that when they heard them for the first time, they did not realize radio could do the things we do. like i am told often, like, by people, the first time they heard "this american life," he did not realize a radio story could be good in a certain way. you would get caught up in it. you we get caught up in it because you just wanted to know what would happen. it can give you all the feelings that dra