anything done, how to move people, ideas or crowds, social norm to effect change, then you're fill los fiezing over there. you have to combine the two to make civic change possible. >> i'm trying to juxtapose your definition of citizen with the president who now sits in the oval office. it being a citizen, a good citizen, an honorable citizen is your definition, power plus character equals citizen. power plus character equals citizen. this guy is the president but one could argue that equation is slightly off. there's a component miss in that character. is it possible that the president could be a selfish citizen? >> it is not only possible, sit the case that the president is no role model for citizenship. and i'm not just talking about the fact that he and his family are incredibly self dealing and corrupt in the way they're operating the white house as an extension of the trump organization. i'm talking about rewinding to stuff that people have discounted and forgotten in the campaign. his demeaning of disfavored people, whether it's muslims, people with disabilities. and since he's become p