>> luke goodrich is deputy national litigation director at the becket fund for religious liberty, which is representing the church and school in this case. >> our constitution recognizes that the government and the church are separate entities, with separate roles in society, and that they shouldn't be allowed to intrude on each other. so, the church doesn't get to pick government leaders and the government doesn't get to pick church leaders. >> reporter: but some argue that the ministerial exception has been taken too far. barry lynn is executive director of americans united for separation of church and state. he's also both a lawyer and a united church of christ minister. >> unfortunately, i think some religious organizations use this idea of a ministerial exception as a pretext to dismiss people on the basis of their color, their gender, their racial background or their disability and that really runs counter to every principle of i think morality, and every principle of our civil rights system. >> reporter: goodrich says the larger religious liberty principle is too important to hav