i started in '76 on lyndon johnson. i want to add it up, 33 years. >> what first sparked your interest in lbj? >> good question. i never look at my books as biography. i never want to do a book just about a great man. i'm interested in political power and how it works. and using a man's life to show it. with robert moses, i tried to show how urban power works in cities. with lyndon johnson, he understood national power better than almost anyone. if i can take his life, i can show how national power works. >> i say you want for the third in your series, you won the national book award. what's the effect of that? >> the effect on it -- the effect on me was terrific. i was happy to win it. >> did. change book sales? anything? >> i'm not -- not sure i know or remember the answer to that question. to be honest with you. he did very well. you know? that book did well. i can't remember this. i had an impact on it. >> author robert. >> author ann. we're a into the obama administration. rate it? >> i'd say, worst than carter on

lyndon johnson as a poor example.n the intellectual point about him. he suddenly got that whether the speech before the gridiron club line him up and everybody thought he was pretty good. he was a political accident when you think about what happened in chicago was that the guy self destruct did, the republican leader in that race and a broaay brought in obama. guest: i was there at that speech and it was the first time i met him. i came back and i told my wife that i had never seen a man work through the way he did. she said," better than bill clinton?" host: if cameras were able to be inside the gridiron club, we could show that. we will not give up. guescaller: i would like to focs on the economy. in order for the president to get the economy moving, we had to stabilize the if you have a job, where will you cash your check? we had to stabilize the banks. the next thing he is trying to do his health care which is 1/6 of the economy. that is a lot of money to give these people some kind of public option where they co

when you hear the lyndon johnson tapes on the phones such as those aired on bill moyer's show a coupleks ago you hear leaders on the hill saying privately, even pleading with the president not simply to get carried away with the militarism. as one leader from the appropriations committee pleads with the president now -- yet there's something in this repeated compulsion, president bent on war who insists, no, we are the smart guys, the best and brightest. we will do a ride. host: norm solomon, the author of "or made easy." and this ismark, a reporter. caller: good morning. i want to talk about the fact that when president obama was running, running for office, he said that he felt the war in afghanistan was the right war to fight. he made it very clear. he really got in and listen to what everyone had to say. he made the decision he thought best for the country around how we face afghanistan. i think if we look carefully at what he has done, he is not just sending troops over there to fight, but to do the social things neglected to the bush administration. guest: thanks for your comment

because of president lyndon johnson, his courage and because of the united states that could rise to the challenge and pass it despite the critics. well, in the early hours of monday, december 21, 2009, our generation in the united states senate will face our rendezvous with destiny, our opportunity to change this nation, to make such a significant change in the way health care is delivered in america that we can say to future generations, we had our moment and we seized it. to think that we will, with the passage of this bill in just perhaps a few days in the senate and a few weeks on capitol hill, we will enlarge the percentage of americans with the security of health insurance from 83% to 94%, the highest percentage of americans ever insured in the history of our nation. of 50 million uninsured americans today, 30 million of those people will finally be able to rest at night knowing that they're covered, they have health insurance. it will be judy, the worker in marion, illinois, at the motel, $8 an hour, 30 hours a week, $12,000 in annual wages. she's a diabetic. she's never had

would write to president kennedy and say you're just the greatest thing that ever happened, or lyndon johnson, you're on the right track, keep it up. does any of that kind of thing go on today? >> well, i don't think it does. i mean it shouldn't go on, and i think that most people who -- most journalists certainly and i think probably most other people who read this book will say there are a lot of transgressions here. i mean this guy is purporting to be a detached analytical newsman, and he's really snuggling up to a lot of his sources. but he was a columnist, of course, he wasn't an objective reporter who is simply giving facts, he was a columnist, so that would be part of his defense, no doubt. but from almost the very beginning joe got very close to his sources, and probably most people would say too close. >> now, here we are many years later, donald graham runs the washington post. is there any way to relate donald graham back to the days of james polk, and what the journalistic atmosphere was back then? >> well, that's fascinating. those are the days of the partisan press, and james po

when president kennedy and later lyndon johnson fought for medicare, those on the other side raised the same army of straw men. they raised 30 years earlier. they played the same game that they are playing again now. senator curtis of nebraska at that time voiced opposition in this chamber saying medicare -- quote -- "is not needed." he was a republican senator of the time, senator curtis of nebraska said medicare is not needed. it is socialism. it moves the country in a direction which is not good for anyone, whether they be young or old. it charts a course for tpr* which there will be no -- a course from which there will be no turning back. it is not only socialism. it is brazen socialism. in the other body, congressman hall of missouri called it an ill-conceived adventure in government medicine. those were the republican voices of the past on medicare. what senior in this country today, which one of our parents or grandparents believe those words of the past as it relates to their health care today? more straw men, more fear, more nay saying. all of it wrong then, all of it wrong now

host: lyndon johnson had a ranch. ronald reagan had a ranch.ge bush i and ii had them and kennedy had no england. how much of the cost of going to this $4,000 per night condominium is picked up by them and how much is picked up by the government? guest: they have not clarified how this funding question will work. certainly, i think we all expect in the press corps that obama will pay for his own brand. either he will least the house of his own pocket and pay for the family at whatever rate they have. the communications and transportation will be picked up by the taxpayer. i don't think that people can argue that the taxpayer should pay for the actual rental. he has middle of my from his books or adopt it will be a problem paying the tab. host: our line for independence is next, go ahead. caller: i am from new york. "the new york post" which leans to the right, they had a headline and article -- in their article. i don't think we should begrudge this president the kind of locations and things that other presidents have had. i am glad that you sa

like lyndon johnson.s very different from the 1960's. what is that? -- why is that? guest: there are two independents and the caucus, senator joe lieberman, and senator bernie sanders, and they will vote the way they want. and members are much more forceful now. they are less cowed by their leadership and more willing to stand up by themselves -- stand up for themselves. lyndon johnson had huge majorities and he could control them, he could control purse strings, where senators sat, what committees they were on, everything. now there is much more press coverage, and if the senate leader is trying to retaliate, the press will jump all over it. senators are much more likely to speak up and less likely to accept it out of fear that it will ruin their careers. host: to questions and comments about the senate's 18 days of health care debate and the use of senate rules to affect the outcome. we want to know what you thinking as you listen to all of this. one of the things put on the table is this december 1 let

lyndon johnson gave an eloquent , progressive and doggerel address and proceeded to escalate the warew million deaths in vietnam and destroyed the hopes of a great society and his own domestic program. i think that barack obama has shown himself despite his protesting too much that he believes there's not a pearl between afghanistan and vietnam, -- not a parallel between them, i think he has set a course of destructive policy in escalation. it is most profoundly destructive for those there and here. it is guaranteed to split the democratic party. host: many of those are tweeting about the back-and-forth about these issues. along those lines on a domestic issue ,joe says ed health care was the right, then how would the government have the power to regulate? guest: that is the problem with the approach taken by the democratic party. if you tell everyone in society that they have an unlimited right to all the health care they could possibly consume, you guaranteeing that there will be rationing. many million people will not get the care they need because there is not an infinite supply.

kennedy and lyndon johnson and just the struggle of getting to the point.hey were a family of slaves in mississippi and became one of the largest landowners in mississippi. host: thank you. a book you may be interested is "and mighty long way." before it is by bill clinton. florida, joseph, nextel. -- next up. caller: it is a book i saw on c- span not too long ago. it was "operation solo." it is the story of a jewish immigrant who became our spike in the kremlin for about 27, 28 years. -- who became our spy in the kremlin. the offer was the number two man and he interviewed morris sober who came to america in the 1900's. there was a second one that has not been critiqued yeah. assault on another show called "witness to nurembough." he was small in stature but served oscar very well. he became our number one intercurrent from the north berguremburg trials. host: the risk can find that online as well. caller: wonderful, a factual books. host: thank you for sharing. here is norcal, delawaewark, de. caller: my favorite book happened to come out this year. it is

does bill clinton have a relationship with any newsperson like joe alsop did with the presidents lyndon johnson and jack kennedy? >> i do not know that he does. i do not believe that he does. >> what you think about all the letters of him writing to president kennedy saying that he was the greatest. >> it should not the one and i think that most people -- most journalists and most other people who read this book will say, there is a lot of transgressions year. this guy's purporting to be attached analytical news man and his release snuggling up to a lot of resources. but he was a columnist. he was not an objective reporter. that would be part of his defense, no doubt. but from almost the very beginning, joe got very close to his sources. and probably most people would say to close. >> here we are many years later. is there any way to relate dollar ran back to the days of james polk? >> that is fascinating. those were the days of the partisan press. james polk or any president had to have a newspaper that was his spokesperson, his mouthpiece. polk had a real problem with the president because th

kennedy and lyndon johnson and just a struggle of getting to that point how his family had -- they were a family of slaves in mississippi and became one of the largest land owners in adams county mississippi. it was quite a moving story. >> host: thanks, kim. on a related note, a bookie may be interested in that line and a mighty long way my journey to justice at little rock central high school. a page year by bill clinton. out too long springs florida, joseph your favorite book. >> caller: its not a current one but it's one that i saw on c-span on the q&a not too long ago, and it was operation so low -- solo and it is about a jewish immigrant who became a spy and the kremlin's i think for 27, 28 years. >> host: really? >> caller: yes. it's a fact. the author was the number two man i think that the "reader's digest" morris, a small in stature jewish man who came to america in the early 1900's and there was a second one that has not been critiqued yet but i saw on another show called witness to nor numbered. again other small stature jewish man who came to america and served us very well

so we went down to the archives of the lyndon johnson, johnson library and there's this wonderful memo from mac bundy were we start the books they there is no such thing as the establishment. and then there's this memo that andy had written called docking from the establishment. as a memo to johnson about how you had to get the establishment on your side from the vietnam war. he said the key to these people as john mccloy, one of the characters in our book. and he says we should convene them together and we can dump them the wise men and they will do whatever we want. so that's the joy of the documents in the interviewing, which is the way a journalist tries to take on history. it was helpful when i did henry kissinger because every time i looked up the memos in the document, they seemed rather misleading until winston loy told me guess if you work for henry mcgill writes three versions of every memo. one is for the files and is totally untrue. one is for nixon and has its particular slant. and what is for henry's personal files and that's when we tell the real story. so i'm trying to

host: lyndon johnson had a ranch. ronald reagan had a ranch. bush i and ii had them and kennedy had no england. how much of the cost of going to this $4,000 per night condominium is picked up by them and how much is picked up by the government? guest: they have not clarified how this funding question will work. certainly, i think we all expect in the press corps that obama will pay for his own brand. either he will least the house of his own pocket and pay for the family at whatever rate they have. the communications and transportation will be picked up by the taxpayer. i don't think that people can argue that the taxpayer should pay for the actual rental. he has middle of my from his books or adopt it will be a problem paying the tab. host: our line for independence is next, go ahead. caller: i am from new york. "the new york post" which leans to the right, they had a headline and article -- in their article. i don't think we should begrudge this president the kind of locations and things that other presidents have had. i am glad that you said

it was used against lyndon johnson, that same charge was used against bill clinton. it's virtually being used today. when we hear the republicans who are opposing this bill come to the floor, i have a basic question to ask them -- we have been at this debate for a year. where's your bill? what do you want to do? oh, they tell us we have some bills and you're going to see them any day now. well, i'd like to. i'd like to see the comprehensive health care reform bill from the republican side of the aisle. this is ours and it has been on the internet for two weeks for everybody in this nation to read word by word, line by line. sadly, there is no republican bill. i know there are two possible reasons for that. this was hard work. this wasn't easy, politically or otherwise, and they have not engaged in that hard work. what we've seen are press releases and speeches, graphs and pictures, but no bill. no comprehensive health care reform bill from the republican side. secondly, there are many on that side of the aisle who like this system of health care. they agree with the

lyndon johnson sat in your chair. he was the vice president. john kennedy was the president of the united states. and i was a senate page and listened to the all-night debates in the 1960's on civil rights and got to witness history, watched the members of this chamber, some of the historic figures -- hubert humphrey, lyndon johnson, everett dirksen, just remarkable people. barry goldwater. we served with barry together in this chamber for a period of time because he was here when i arrived in the senate. 35 years ago on january 3 of the next month i arrived as a 30-year-old member of the house of representatives. and six years later arrived here as a freshman senator 30 years ago. going back to the 1960's, i've had a lot to do with this chamber and watched it over the years. the best moments occur when we work together. this has been a bitter and difficult battle over these last number of months. as someone who takes great, great pride in having been a part of this chamber, as my father was before me, for more than a quarter of the life of our

lyndon johnson and the democrats -- lyndon john s.o.s. was president -- lyndon johnson was the president and the democrats in the house and senate ... if it weren't for them, medicare would never have been passed. every step of the way it was opposed by other friends on the other side of the aisle. now to hear them talk about how much we're going after medicare ... boy, talk about crocodile tears. well, the other thing i wanted to say, mr. president, is that i wanted to correct something that the senator from oklahoma said. he talked about the recommendations that recently came out -- and i'm going to have nor say about this -- more to say about this in a minute -- the recommendations that came out an mammograms. he said the united states preventive services task force, all they did was look at cost. that's what the senator said, they looked at cost but they didn't look at the people. well, mr. president, the recommendations that come from the united states preventive services task force cannot take into effect cost. cost cannot be a fact

kennedy and lyndon johnson and just the struggle of getting to the point.hey were a family of slaves in mississippi and became one of the largest landowners in mississippi. host: thank you. a book you may be interested is "and mighty long way." before it is by bill clinton. florida, joseph, nextel. -- next up. caller: it is a book i saw on c- span not too long ago. it was "operation solo." it is the story of a jewish immigrant who became our spike in the kremlin for about 27, 28 years. -- who became our spy in the kremlin. the offer was the number two man and he interviewed morris sober who came to america in the 1900's. there was a second one that has not been critiqued yeah. assault on another show called "witness to nurembough." he was small in stature but served oscar very well. he became our number one intercurrent from the north berguremburg trials. host: the risk can find that online as well. caller: wonderful, a factual books. host: thank you for sharing. here is norcal, delawaewark, de. caller: my favorite book happened to come out this year. it is

while goldwater was later defeated by lyndon johnson, many americans watching that they immediately sensede president. the title of reagan's speech was "a time for choosing." he crystallized the voices for voters. when people look for self- government, or would they submit themselves to being ruled by elites in a far distant capital? his polka at social engineers was accompanied by a vigorous defense of america's greatest abroad. he reminded americans that they did have a rendezvous with destiny. as california governor in the 1960's and 1970's, ronald reagan proved over and over that he had the mind of a committed conservative, and the temperament of an extraordinary leader. as president, reagan displayed his unmistakable skill in communicating a vision of american exceptional as some. it was not just vision that moves people his way. it was also his tone. he was always quick with a smile for self-deprecating jokes. he once said "i have left orders to be awakened in case of a national emergency, even if i'm in a cabinet meeting." he clearly had the pulse and the respect of the average amer

then again lyndon johnson raised it in the early 1960's. he was a master of the senate, as he's been characterized in a book that's written about him. and he believed that he had the power to make this happen to deal with the health care system across the board in america. it turned out that he made a significant contribution with the enact ph-ft medicare and -- with the enactment of medicare and medicaid but could not reach the goal of universal health care or comprehensive health care reform. this president, president obama, came to us and issued the same challenge. he said that we've reached a point of no return. current health care system in america is unsustainable. it's unaffordable. the cost of health care goes up dramatically. ten years ago a family of four paid an average of $6,000 a year, $500 a month, for health care insurance. now that's up to twice that amount. $12,000 average for a family of four, $1,000 a month. in eight years, with projected increases in costs, we expect that monthly premium for the family of four to go up t

along with equal measures of patience, persistence, and persuasion -- lyndon johnson once called thatwer available. it did not happen right away. when he first moved to the upper chamber, he frankly did not care much for. he did not like the pace of action. he did not think he fit in. and worst of all, for a guy that arranges his stock for bicolor -- sock drawer by color, he thought was completely disorganized. he wrote a list of things he would change if he ever got the chance. a few years later, he did. he was elected by his colleagues to the senate leadership team and quickly worked his way to the top, culminating in 6.5 years of distinguished service. throughout his years in the senate, he was careful to note that some occasions were historic and not political there was the leaders lecture series at the time of heightened political polarization bipartisan events like this held a non-political setting, here in the old senate chamber. it was an important reminder of stores, --stewards, it was as we leave it. the first person ever to serve as wic in both houses of congress -- whip in

kennedy and lyndon b. johnson. and just the struggle of getting to that point and other midweek family were a family of slave in mississippi and became one of the largest landowners in the county in mississippi. it was quite a moving story. >> host: thanks, kim. on a related note a book you may be interested in is a mighty long way by my journey to justice that little rock high school. the book is by carlotta walls lanier. with lisa frazier page. joseph next up. your favorite look? >> caller: it's not a current one, but it was one so long on c-span on q&a so long ago and it was operation solo and it's a story of a jewish immigrant to america who became our spy and the criminals were about 27, 28 years. and that's a fact. the author was number two man i think of the readers digest and he actually interviewed morris sobel, a small in stature jewish man who came to america in the early 1900's. and there was a second one that has not been critiqued yet that i saw on another call called witnessed in orangeburg. again, i

he is the first democrat to win an absolute majority of the vote since lyndon johnson did that in 1964ely has the most ambitious agenda of of any president in either party probably sense franklin delano roosevelt. those are all aspects that point democrat, saying he is the most impressive political figure this year. host: some may be surprised by that given his polling numbers have declined over the past few months. guest: i think the fact he has taken a lot of controversial issues, try to push things in different directions, i think that is one reason why -- the loss of his popularity because he is kind of pushing on all different fronts and certainly there are some voters out there, a lot of republicans, fair number of independents that think he is going to far too fast. but if you are a democrat, you are really hoping you got someone at the head of the party who is pushing a lot of proposals that basically democrats have not had an opportunity to push the lease for the last eight years. host: tell us over the next half hour to the most impressive political figure is this year. let u

staff person in that regard, and bob ball, who was a former social security administrator under lyndon johnsoneported to spiker o'neill. -- speaker o'neill. and he and i worked very closely together. what happened was as the various different proposals went forward , the senior leadership of the congress and the administration were wholly informed so that they could absorb it, react to it, and feed it back to the commission so that you didn't end up with a report coming out at the end which was a take it or leave it type of report with 20 different issues which nobody could think about in coherent manner. what you avoided in that type of issue, in that type of result, was particular congressmen and senators taking quick positions with respect to various aspects of the report without having time to really think it through. so that process of keeping everyone engaged, then finally when the agreement was made and we all agreed that it was nonamendable because it was a very tightly argued commission report, bob ball and i went up to the hill here and i would, as the republican member, i would answ

while goldwater was later defeated by lyndon johnson, many americans watching that they immediately sensed title of reagan's speech was "a time for choosing." he crystallized the voices for voters. when people look for self- government, or would they submit themselves to being ruled by elites in a far distant capital? his polka at social engineers was accompanied by a vigorous defense of america's greatest abroad. he reminded americans that they did have a rendezvous with destiny. as california governor in the 1960's and 1970's, ronald reagan proved over and over that he had the mind of a committed conservative, and the temperament of an extraordinary leader. as president, reagan displayed his unmistakable skill in communicating a vision of american exceptional as some. it was not just vision that moves people his way. it was also his tone. he was always quick with a smile for self-deprecating jokes. he once said "i have left orders to be awakened in case of a national emergency, even if i'm in a cabinet meeting." he clearly had the pulse and the respect of the average american. he develop

i think that he is not going to make the mistake that lyndon johnson did in to continue to feed worlds no light at the end of the tunnel, you know. and i think that if he realized this that the afghan government is not going to move forward with what they need to do to pick up on their side, that he's going to make adjustments. i don't think this is an endless, you know, and the situation here as far as he's concerned. >> thank you for the call. palm springs, california, veteran. good evening. >> hello. i am angrily opposed to this war. i am not an iraq vet. i am a vietnam vet. and, do we have to lose as many young people in this time that we lost in the 60's to prove that this is exactly the same war? >> gland, when did you serve in vietnam? >> i was there at the end. i was in the air force. i took care of said. and because i was at the end i really kind of noticed how much we lost. i mean, do you realize how much potential this country had that we lost at that time? >> i'm going to stop you on that point. thank you for the call. there is no official republican response, but senator

i will tell you as a democrat, we take great pride in medicare, it was lyndon johnson who led a democratic congress in passing it. very few if any republicans supported it. and over the years it's a program that we stood behind as a party because we believe it provided so much well-being for 45 million americans now, today, seniors. and so this bill starts to move us toward a place where you can basically say that there's a sound economic footing for medicare in the future. if we don't do something today, in seven, eight, or nine years, the medicare program could go bankrupt. if we wait five years to do it, imagine a what we'll have to do then. so this bill moves in that direction in making medicare sounder by eliminating some of the waste that's currently in the program. there was a time when our friends on the other side of the aisle joined us in saying this program could be more efficient. senator mccain's amendment say that's there should be no cuts in medicare even if it is in wasteful spending. i would say that senator mccain has a strong bill on patients bill of rights. i would say

and we had john kennedy and lyndon johnson take the lead on medicare, and the republicans fought us everyh of the way on that. we have some cooperation from certain senators and certain members of congress, but overall it was very difficult. and this fight is very difficult. to make sure that we turn things around. if we live in a society where if we don't step in to the breach here, we are told by nonpartisan surveys -- if senator grassley wouldn't mind, it's hard for me to concentrate. thank you. we are told if we do nothing -- and this is important -- premiums for our average families in california will be 41% of income. 41% of income. in states like pennsylvania, it will be 50% of income. well, we know what that means. people will not have health insurance. so we could pull the covers over our head and say, it's too hard, it's too tough. we could turn our backs to the fact that 66% of bankruptcies are related to a health care crisis. we could turn our back on that. we could turn our back on the fact that infant mortality in america, 29 out of 30 nations, that's what we come out. this

washington as they did in the civil rights legislation that we talked about in the 1960's where lyndon johnsonwas president, a democrat, and everett dirksen was the republican leader and they saw the republican leader and the democratic president saying okay, this is a tough problem but we have a solution that we both agree with, then the american people have some confidence in that. so bipartisanship is not just a nice thing, it's a signal to the american people that -- that people of different points of view think a controversial decision is in the country's interests, and isn't that totally lacking here? isn't that bipartisanship signal lacking across the country? a senator: senator, thank you. i am astonished at the process involved here. mr. risch: if one steps back and has a look at this at 30,000 feet and what we're doing here, what we're doing here is we -- and i say we. it's actually the other side of the aisle, but what the other side of the aisle is doing here is they are attempting to entirely revamp the health care system of this country, and they're doing it all in one bill, whic

it was used against lyndon johnson, that same charge was used against bill clinton. it's virtually being used today. when we hear the republicans who are opposing this bill come to the floor, i have a basic question to ask them -- we have been at this debate for a year. where's your bill? what do you want to do? oh, they tell us we have some bills and you're going to see them any day now. well, i'd like to. i'd like to see the comprehensive health care reform bill from the republican side of the aisle. this is ours and it has been on the internet for two weeks for everybody in this nation to read word by word, line by line. sadly, there is no republican bill. i know there are two possible reasons for that. this was hard work. this wasn't easy, politically or otherwise, and they have not engaged in that hard work. what we've seen are press releases and speeches, graphs and pictures, but no bill. no comprehensive health care reform bill from the republican side. secondly, there are many on that side of the aisle who like this system of health care. they agree with the

staff person in that regard, and bob ball, who was a former social security administrator under lyndon johnsonpiker o'neill. -- speaker o'neill. and he and i worked very closely together. what happened was as the various different proposals went forward , the senior leadership of the congress and the administration were wholly informed so that they could absorb it, react to it, and feed it back to the commission so that you didn't end up with a report coming out at the end which was a take it or leave it type of report with 20 different issues which nobody could think about in coherent manner. what you avoided in that type of issue, in that type of result, was particular congressmen and senators taking quick positions with respect to various aspects of the report without having time to really think it through. so that process of keeping everyone engaged, then finally when the agreement was made and we all agreed that it was nonamendable because it was a very tightly argued commission report, bob ball and i went up to the hill here and i would, as the republican member, i would answer the repub

those, especially in our party who feel like we should have done more, i'm sure in 1965 when lyndon johnson signed into law medicare legislation that there were probably some who maybe thought, who didn't vote for it. i'm told it was mostly democrats who voted for it. not so much our republican friends. i'm not sure how many democrats who voted for medicare at the time said, you know, this doesn't do enough for our senior citizens. it doesn't provide for hospice care. it doesn't provide for home health care. it doesn't provide for disability benefits for those who are under the age of 65. there's no prescription drug program. there's nothing for outpatient surgery. none of those things in the original medicare legislation. over time they have been added, and the medicare legislation and medicare law has, i think, been improved to make it a better program. now we face a day when the medicare program is literally running out of money. and one of the less told secrets in the legislation that's before us is the medicare trust fund, whose life has been down to about seven or eight years, i under