but they're forgetting that lyndon johnson was facing the same thing. so it was the sectionalism, being a southerner. no southerner had been nominated since before the civil war. now, we take it for granted. we've had johnson and we've had jimmy carter. we've had clinton, we've had the two bushes and some say we had al gore elected president. but it wasn't a given then. jack kennedy said i had to go to the primaries to prove that a catholic would be elected. lyndon johnson didn't do that. but lyndon johnson still had tremendous clout in the south. jack kennedy had weaknesses, both because of the catholic issue and because of the civil rights issue and because the south was trending back for the first time really to the republican party. the south had broken loose on the 1952 and 1956 elections when eisenhower took a bunch of states. and it could slide even more under jack kennedy. so you have to play nice with lyndon johnson if you were jack kennedy. but does he? he makes the joe biden choice. he takes the safe choice initially. , somebody who maybe can'

that the vice- president should be heard and seen, but not reported upon too much. >> of course, lyndon johnson had been the majority leader in the senate. these two men had a long relationship and served in leadership together. could you talk more about how johnson used the levers of power to control of hubert humphrey? >> he had an argument with johnson about vietnam, and johnson froze him out for at least a year. he cut off his privileges. he shortened his staff. at one point, he tapped his phones. he did a number of things to control humphrey. he did not want him speaking out against vietnam. he did not want him speaking out about anything. he wanted to keep quiet. he had a way of calling him "my planes" and "my boats." he had a possessive attitude about that. humphrey dealt with it a lot. there were times when he gave three or four speeches per week. the freeze lasts about a year. >> did hubert humphrey talk about how he reacted to this? he had to been unhappy. >> he was miserable for a long time. johnson was shutting him out of any -- of the inner circle. he was on the outside. he wanted

lyndon johnson and john kennedy? u make a value judgment about how much they cared about the issue compared to humphrey? mick: johnson probably was more in line with humphrey. kennedy was a reluctant civil rights person. he came to it later. bobby even more. but it was an issue for humphrey from the beginning and for johnson for many years. humphrey was much more passionate about it. much more involved with the african-american community. he spoke at naacp meetings. he did not know martin luther king in 48. but he did know a lot of the labor leaders. people who were around at that time. susan: let us listen to cynthia in sioux city, iowa. >> i was a member of the television news team in sioux city, iowa. i was in d.c. reporting the day we withdrew from vietnam and i had the privilege of interviewing hubert humphrey on that very day. i asked how he felt about losing the vietnam war. he said he was a casualty of the vietnam war. he was quite emotional. i wonder if you could talk more about his vietnam policy. mick: the

one time in 1964 he had this very sensitive meeting with lyndon johnson and about how they would handle the issue of race riots. london johnson spent hours of preparing. there was an entire memo that was going to guide his incredibly delicate ago seasons. the meeting lasted 15 seconds and then barry goldwater was like, when do i get to try this new plan that is coming out? "let's go back to the campaign. it was a landslide for lyndon johnson. why such a disparity? was barry goldwater misunderstood in the campaign? >> a lot of reasons. first of all, people were terrified of the prospect of nuclear war. people -- lyndon johnson was dishonest on issues like the and not. there was a bumper sticker that showed up the next year, and said if i voted for barry goldwater there would be a war in vietnam. i voted for barry goldwater, and there was. his ideological time had not come. also, i mentioned the atrocious campaign he ran. i found a memo that inspired the the research staff. i found a formal letter they sent out to political science professors and every state. it said, dear prof., please s

it was a landslide for lyndon johnson. why such a disparity? barry goldwater misunderstood in the 1954 campaign. >> a lot of reasons. people were terrified of the prospect of nuclear war that he never really backed down from. lyndon was dishonest on issues like vietnam. he said i will not send american boys thousands of miles away to do what asian boys should do. there was a bumper sticker that showed up the next year, and it said that if people voted for barry goldwater there would be a war in vietnam. and there was a war in vietnam. his ideological time had not come. and also, i mentioned the absolutely atrocious campaign that he ran. i found a memo, they fired their research staff, and i found a form letter they sent out to political science professors in every state that said, "dear professor, please send us any books or pamphlets about the political situation in "insert state here." this was not a very professional operation. host: we're welcoming questions from the audience here. we have one from the front. >> i have lived in central phoen

thank you. >> lyndon johnson -- the most famous moment between lyndon johnson -- lyndon johnson and wallace came in the midst of the selma crisis in which president johnson brought him to washington, or actually, governor wallace volunteered to meet with him where he got people treatment from lyndon johnson. he was pretty intimidated by the whole process, but he was not alone in that respect. lyndon johnson intimidated everyone. that was, of course, in the early 1960's. the last hurrah for the kind of racial campaign came in 1970 against albert brewer, who had been one of his proteges. he replaced his wife as governor. in the wake of that campaign, it was a pretty all out use of the race issue, attacks that brewer was a candidate of blacks. in the aftermath of that, politically, he said to many of his aides that this was the last campaign he would be able to run like this. the public mood of voters was changing and black voters were fully enfranchised at that moment. when he emotionally chain, that, i think, really comes later on. >> as we discussed with dan carter a little earlier, george

the smothers brothers crucified and lyndon johnson yet lyndon johnson's daughters love the show.hen they were canceled one of the smothers brothers were canceled lyndon johnson, who had been dealing with, he didn't love what they were talking about, they were doing a lot about the vietnam war and when they were canceled he wrote them a letter and basically said, it's not easy being fought for satire but that's part of my job and part of being in this country that where we have free speech and it was my honor, it was my honor to. [multiple speakers] yes. >> do you think Ãbgo ahead. >> that's where we should be. it's interesting when somebody mocks me but all my comic friends mock me, i think it's hilarious, like a badge of honor. it really is. if someone did a bit about me on snl i would be like oh my god i arrived. >> it would be amazing. >> what into it? people really take themselves so Ãband way too, seriously. >> right. to go on a less serious note for a second, one of my favorite jokes from the book is the so long joke. >> oh my god. >> can you give a little bit of that? give

steps forward and turns on the sitting president of the united states, the head of his party, lyndon johnson and says i will run against johnson. i will stand as an antiwar candidate. and he shocks the pundits by almost defeating lyndon johnson in the first democratic primary in 1968. he doesn't quite win, but he almost wins. suddenly it's like, huh, people don't like the war in vietnam. not protesters, not radicals, not new lefters, not black people, i don't know if there were any black people in new hampshire in 1968. but regular folks don't like this -- well, into the fray jumps the junior but very well-known senator from new york, bobby kennedy, the dead president's brother who also says i too will stand against these war in vietnam. i too will challenge the seated president of the united states. johnson is horrified at what he sees as betrayal by his own party's representatives and it's a real moment of truth for him. johnson is not in the best of health. he's had gallbladder surgery, his heart is not good. he's faced incredible stress from a war that he never wanted to fight but felt i

there is a great shot of lyndon johnson looking sour.ut the kennedy one, which had photographers and newsmen writing appealed to me. i must admit that i have a soft spot for jfk. i was 11 years old when i was elected. and his vigor, as he himself would put it, is what really interested me in politics when i was a kid. a little bit of payback time. susan: it's clear from your index and your notes that you did extensive research for this book. it was interesting to me that one name kept popping up again and again in your chapters. that is a long-term white house correspondent helen thomas. counted 34hink i citations in the book. who is she for people that don't will the name? and why was she so important in your storytelling? mr. holzer: i picked a few people who lasted for several presidents and could look at ahead and back. and another groundbreaking woman who was known for her cute questions, that often triggered a laughter when president kennedy responded. she started out in the roosevelt era and faced pretty sexist comments and teasin

you're telling me it's it would be impossible it would be unheard of it was especially tough for lyndon johnson to date the most pro israeli american president in history johnson was and a very tough mood. i'm tom he was director in the state department director of intelligence and research at the time of the liberty incident and $67.00 tacked on the liberty johnson himself briefed newsweek magazine off the record that the israelis had attacked and the reason they detect was that they thought this was an intelligence ship that was intercepted perhaps israeli as well as egyptian communications but then everything changed the fact that johnson of self was the leaker and briefer of newsweek was leaked and this alarmed of course the israeli embassy and their leading friends in the jewish organizations the israeli embassy regarded this as a major problem. and that. what johnson told newsweek practically amount of blood libel declassified israeli documents show they were going to threaten president johnson with blood libel gross anti-semitism and that would end his political career blackmail. this is

quite pointedly lyndon johnson unleashes an air war on now the enemy, an american air war on north vietnam. and operation rolling thunder, as it's called, begins in which massive amounts of bombs from u.s. airplanes flown by u.s. pilots begin to be unleashed on north vietnam. now these are targeted bombs. they're not wholesale destructions of cities. they are aimed at troop movements, they are aimed at factories building war materiel. they're targeted bombs. they're not terror bombing. they're not like what happened in the end of world war ii. but the bombs are intense. 600,000 tons of bombs will be dropped on north vietnam in this operation rolling thunder. large-scale support at this point. so is there any critique at this point beyond those very few voices that i discussed earlier? yeah. there are some americans who from the get-go, from the gulf of tonkin resolution right through the coup incident, the death of eight marines, the launching days later by lyndon johnson of operation rolling thunder, who do protest, who do raise questions. but most of these voices, most of these individua

i wright about lyndon johnson in the book, this smothers brothers were crucifying him on their show, and you're too young for that. >> i'll just nod along. >> for people of my age. a great show, a variety show and very -- comp immediatans or social commentators and the show was commenting on social issues. >> you've write it was a something a lot of other comedians took from later. >> right. >> loved it. >> absolutely. and come immediate yeps tell the truth -- comedians tell the truth which is why we're so threatening so the smothers brothers crucified lyndon johnson but his daughters lovedded the show. and when they were canceled, one of the smothers brothers were canceled, i lyndon johnson, who had been dealing with -- he didn't love what they were talking about, the vietnam war and he -- when they war condition sell head he wrote them letter and said, look, it's not easy being fodder for satire but that is part of my job, and part of being in this country that where we have free speech it and was my honor, it was my honor to be. >> lambasted. >> ways, and i wish you the best. and

and lyndon johnson's daughter loved the show. when they were canceled, on the smothers brothers, lyndon johnston who had been dealing with, he didn't love that they were talking about. there were doing a lot about the vietnam war. when they were canceled, he wrote them a letter basically said, it is not easy being fire for satire but that is part of my job. and part of being in this country that where we have speech and it was my honor. it was my honor to be part of this. i wish you the best. mark: so that's the partnership. it. judy: . this what we should be . he said when someone mocks me, i think it is hilarious. it's a badge of honor. it really is. somebody did a bit about me, on my gosh. mark: it would be amazing. judy: yes amazing. good people really take themselves so and way too seriously. mark: right. to go on a different out for a second. one of my favorite jokes throughout the book is the long joke. can you do a little bit of that. to give people a sense of similes jokes . judy: so my mother, it's difficult to use of ce

lyndon johnson was seen as overregulated the economy, over regulating society. he became innocence the first celebrity, first major celebrity to be elected to the office. barry goldwater didn't win in 64 but -- 66. he actually defeated the most recent california governor, jerry brown, his dad, who had been governor before. he >> this is a comment. i hope you like it. currently wants me to tell you that she likes year shirt. >> thank you currently. you and i do a lot of blue on blue. i >> yes but i think i surpassed you today. >> that's a higher quality shirt that i saw. >> it's wonderful that you mentioned this because this was actually brought to me by might relatives in india. so i'm wearing my indian internationalism in a really stylish way. right? now eddie what about your shirt? >> i mean it's been a while and no one has commented on my shirt. it's very summary. >> it's jungle-y, doesn't it remind you of the jungle? at first i thought it was camouflage. you joined the marines. camouflage on there. got a speed on style because it's important to me. >> he's d

so in 1965, for example, roughly at the time that lyndon johnson is telling the american people we've begun to escalate a military involvement in vietnam, you've got martin luther king and tens and tens of thousands of others marching in selma, alabama, to ensure the right of african-americans to vote in a state that had long disenfranchised them. so, right? so there's this kind of parallel social movement occurring as these early -- and we can use the word now -- antiwar advocates are trying to come up with their own answers and solutions. so obviously to some extent this nascent anti-war activism is going to look at the civil rights movement. they have a repertoire. they already have some means and tools and practices that might be adaptable to our cause. so that's one piece out there. there's another piece out there that's almost happening simultaneously but it's, again, a precursor to this. we talked earlier about what was happening on the university of california berkeley campus in the fall of 1964, really just weeks after the gulf of tonkin resolution is passed. on the campus at

woodrow wilson, even lyndon johnson was a racist and martin luther king made him give rights so we could -- that's all bull crap. it's not what america is about. >> go ahead and respond, ari. >> again, you know, as a scientist, i care less about the parties and issues, i'm looking at the data. while antifa, when you're talking about antifa, you're talking about the movement, a recent studies are talking about something between a 10 to 20, 30 people in each area or in each town, so we're talking about a very small groups that are not really koords nated effectively and so far, while they are maybe involved in some of the protests that we see, it's very difficult to argue that they are engaging in any kind of violent campaigns. they're definitely not operating in the same level that we see on the far right. organizations such as the 3% or the oath keepers who have an organization that deploying their people in areas where there's clashes. it's much more organized. you are correct, in the early 20th century, many politicians from the democratic party were members of the kkk. they were affil

and lyndon johnson come as vice president never knew about the lie.e never knew about the secret deal. so johnson was living under the myth that kennedy was eyeball to eyeball with the russians and did not blink. many didn't blink because he felt like he had to. that's the reason i wrote my first book. my got caught up in vietnam because he had just as much as the predecessor. so lying is a very complicated matter. lied because we lie all the tim time. beginning of the book we are taught how great it was that jacob lied about his birthright to his father isaac to steal from esau. then of course there'd be no moses if the midwife had not lied about the israelite child. we understand that. it's very hard to understand the consequences of lying before the lie takes place. i think journalists is to say the truth. you can't worry about whether it's a good lie or a bad lie. scholars and intellectuals to defend the truth, to defend the language. one thing that donald trump should goad to jail for, he is so promiscuous. even though if he knows a few words. so

basically got around that but it was very easy for the future incumbents like richard nixon or lyndon johnson to avoid debate and it was only through some very clever lawyers on the part of the former aide and there almost wasn't a debate in 1980 and then there were three candidates and which candidates would be included. i will say a couple things how i write about it. first of all, going into the debate, the two candidates were pretty much tied. somehow imagine he dominated for most of the part but after, ronald reagan shot ahead like a rocket and the fundamental reason is they believed ronald reagan, not everyone of course but a lot of people believed he was an extremist and bold. that he wasn't up to the job of the presidency, and they were desperate to have a debate. they were frightened to have a debate because both sides fought maybe jimmy carter would reveal ronald reagan to be a shallow person that wasn't up to the presidency. one of the things that happened that was striking was ronald reagan said many things that were about his records. the first instance he said he had never been

and the lyndon johnson school of public affairs. of 10he author and editor books on contemporary politics and foreign policy. the riserecent book is and fall of america's highest office. also offers -- published in 2009. his writings appear in media and he is a frequent public lecture. podcast.a weekly this is democracy through his professional webpage. it's a great pleasure to have you here. you have the floor. >> let me begin by congratulating tom. tom and diana i have known since i begin my graduate student career. they have been so on portman to my development and continued growth and learning of a scholar. it's a pleasure to be here and pleasure to be a part of an event. this is the second part i have been a part of a lecture at the wilson center and it's a real honor. let me jump right in. to echo all the things about tom's book. i want to add more and more to what others have said. i really enjoyed this book and i read it twice. i read it in the final version. i really enjoyed it. it's a book about kissinger that really makes

lyndon johnson, the majority leader of the senate, had also suffered a heart attack. pend the night at london's branch -- lyndon's grant. we got there late. mrs. johnson was very upset because the doctor told her about lyndon johnson should be sleeping. and he was get up -- he was up until 2:00 in the morning. on the way home, just the two of us for traveling. adlai stevenson said to me, if i want the nomination next year, i will have to run in the primaries. i said, they are right. if president eisenhower does not to run, every democrat is going to want the nomination and you'll have to fight for it. if president eisenhower does run, you ought to forget about it. he said, i am not going to run in those primaries. i am not going to be a candidate like i am running for sheriff. i am not gone to do. of course, he ended up doing it because that is where the system -- that is the way the system operated. >> joe m. los angeles, we are talking about adlai stevenson. >> i want to jump ahead to the 1960's. what you thought his relationship with the kennedys was. i know he was

then the guys gonna become president three years after that which is lyndon johnson.johnson is the majority leader in the senate. the democrats have taken control of the senate and fulbright has become the chair of the meeting since 1949 and he becomes the longest holding chair until 1959 until his resignation in 1964. this graphic is from 1963 it's a very significant scrapbooking it's a documentation and the official copy given to the senator of the signing of the treaty. so we have senator fulbright over here we also have the premiere of the soviet union jeff in the middle, well chris jeff looks a little serious at the always is, fulbright is happy with how it's going. one thing he was doing was defusing conflict and helping double policy lead the united states and -- what we're looking at here are documents from the fulbright papers that show the complexity of his political position as a southern senator. and also the compromises and some of them the mistakes even distinguished as well fulbright make over a long political career. right over here is the southern man

helps i don't think a vice presidential candidate ever produces a victory the exception being lyndon johnson 1960 for j.f.k. but she helps them i think she's popular among communities where turnout was a terrible problem for hillary clinton and biden has to make sure that minority communities vote polling is your business are there too many polls. actually i would argue there are in the key swing states i like to do polling as which most people today do we don't rely on this poll because we think it's great or that poll because we think it's great you wash out a lot of the air in polling when you average out the results that's fine nationally but the popular vote doesn't mean anything i want to see more polls in michigan i want to see more polls in wisconsin and pennsylvania and arizona so that we can average them and have a pretty good idea of what's happening how important is the upcoming debate much less important than most people think it's the end of the the vast majority of people don't change their minds in debates they tune in to cheer for their side it's like a sporting event so and

presidential candidate has won the majority since lyndonjohnson candidate has won the majority since lyndon johnsonlyndonjohnson and this isa since lyndonjohnson and this is a problem they have often faced with republicans trying to paint them as left—wing and has radicals. joe biden is far from a left—wing but a centrist moderate but this is a strategy likely to work with many of those sort of suburban housewives that donald trump is referring to and that is what he is hoping it will do and try to instill anxiety about a left—leaning radical and for the progressives in the party, there is definitely a danger that they will not be excited about his candidacy. he was not really the first bit of that left—wing of the party and is —— they may very well stay home if he is not progressive enough. thank you very much, professor. thank you for having me. three years ago, a crackdown by the military in myanmar left thousands of rohingya muslims dead, and forced a mass exodus across the border to bangladesh. over a million rohingya people now live in the world's largest refugee camps in cox's bazar, banglad

he saw lyndon johnson and others as overregulating the economy. overregulating society. he became in a sense, the first major celebrity to get elected to office. goldwater did not win in 1964, but reagan was elected governor of california in 1966. he actually defeat ed the most recent california governor, jerry brown, his dad. who had been governor before. >> we have a couple of questions. >> yep. >> i hope you'll like it. carly wants me to tell you that she likes your shirt. >> oh, well, thank you, carly. thank you very much, carly. i like my shirt, too. what do you think? >> it's nice. it's blue. you and i do a lot of blue on blue. >> i noticed that. but i think i surpassed you today. >> yeah. >> because sometimes, we wear almost the same thing. >> that's a higher quality shirt. >> this shirt, carly, it's wonderful you mentioned this. this is actually brought to me by my relatives from india. >> wow, wow. >> so i'm wearing my indian internationalism in a very stylish way today. right? >> i think so. >> now, eddie, what about your shirt? >> it's been a while and no one'

and lyndon johnson, his vice president never knew about the deal the secret deal. so was living under the mystic kennedy had been eyeball to eyeball with the russians and didn't blink. and he went into vietnam eyeball to eyeball didn't blink because he felt like he had to on this actually the reason i wrote my first book. because of that particular lie. we got caught evan vietnam because he had to be as macho as his predecessor. so lying is a very complicated matter. like i said you can't just rule and say don't lie because we allow the time. at the very beginning of the book or we are taught great it is that jacob lied about his birthright to his father isaac to steal it from esau. then of course it would be no moses if the midwife had not lied about the israelite child. lies and noble eyes we understand that. very hard to understand the consequences of lying before the lie takes place. but i think the job of journalists and intellectuals is to defend the truth. you can't worry about whether it's a good lie or a bad lie. the job of scholars and intellectuals was t

. >> president lyndon johnson signed the land mark law in 1965, and ever since the voting rights acte supreme court stuck a dagger in the heart of the voting rights act of 1965. they're saying in effect that history cannot repeat itself, but i say come and walk in my shoes. >> shelby county was suing the justice department, and when you sue the justice department, you name the attorney general as the defendant in the case. and so that's why my name under fortunately appears on that case. the shelby county decision is one of the most disastrous supreme court decisions of all time. they get the pre clearance authority of the united states department of justice had which in essence gave the justice department the ability to challenge the change that would be made and covered locality with regard to procedures. that way the justice department can stop something from happening as opposed to filing a lawsuit after an election had already occurred. since shelby county about, 27 states have actually passed a necessary photo i.d. laws, purged voter rolls. polling places have been moved withou

that president kennedy is assassinated and unable to carry forward the legacy even further, so lyndon johnson assumes the presidency and advances many elements of kennedy's legacy from that point on. i wanted to make sure people ew some of those historic facts. i encourage you to come to the library and learn more about it. before that women's bureau, i think it would be terrific. all right. >> are we ready to jump into some questions? >> that may hear them. >> terrific. -- let me hear them. >> terrific. if you would like to ask a question about this or on the library, please put those in the chat box on youtube. willll put them in and we try and get them in the queue. let's start with a couple basic ones. in the united states over the last couple months, we will be looking at legacy of historical figures. what can you tell us that you are finding at the kennedy library, that people are thinking about kennedy's legacy? lastt been shifting in the couple months, the last couple years? folks will be interested in hearing about that. >> i think many people point to some pretty concrete measures i

towas the closest thing shenanigans, lyndon johnson was involved and several other politicians that we still hear about today. gavel at oneick point in the voting, but it army would meant the keep thousands of men in the army. hadr marshall said, if that gone the other way, if that gotten rid of the draft, it the warve meant probably would have gone on until -- and this is marshall speaking -- until 1950 with a loss of at least another million people worldwide. he says that his homeport that one vote is. in the book, it is a cliffhanger. i try to read the book as if you did not know who's going to win world war ii. that is what narrative writing is all about, i wonder if he will pull this off? >> you told me of the day, spoiler alert, we won the war. things, you somewhat alluded to this early on, but one of the things i learned about from your book were the military maneuvers through the south. that was not something i was familiar with. talk atou think -- about those maneuvers. maybe a little bit of strategy or tactics and their value or the importance they had in the early training.

lyndon johnson assumes the presidency and advances many legacys of kennedy's from that point on. i just wanted to make sure people knew some of those historic facts. i encourage you to come to the library and learn more about it. as i said before, the women's bureau i think would make a terrific movie. all right. are we ready to jump into some questions? alan: yes. who do we have? patrick: i want to remind everyone that if you would like to ask a question on this or about the library, please put those on the chat box on youtube and we will put those in and try to get them in the queue for alan. let's start with a couple of basic ones. take moderator's discretion and ask the first question. alan: feel free. patrick: in the last couple of months we have really been looking at legacy. legacy of historic figures, presidents, the founding and forward. what can you tell us about whether it is historians or the public that you are finding at the kennedy library people thinking about john f. kennedy's legacy? has it been shifting? folks would be interested in hearing about that. alan: i

didn't see anywhere else. >> my fellow citizens -- >> because they were directly criticizing lyndon johnson:00 in the morning and saying, you got to stop this. paley did tell those guys to knock it off. the smothers brothers said, this is the show we're going to do. we're not going to back off. harry belafonte had them on. >> what are some of the jokes that cbs will not permit you to tell on the air. >> they've been kind enough to let us come on this show and do some of our distasteful material. ♪ make love not war >> i think what was interesting about the week and something that appealed to me personally even at that age was this mix of art and politics. [ applause ] ♪ change, change, change >> throughout her career in the 1960s, aretha franklin was not afraid to make both entertainment and political music and to tie those things together in a way that would be forever transformative to popular music. ♪ oh, you're treating me cruel >> just one month before "the tonight show" with harry belafonte, aretha frankly released her album. this is just one month before "the tonight show," so aretha

as a democrat in 1968 and drove lyndon johnson out of the race, forced johnson to the sideline. he decided to run as an independent. and i was just a young political activist, interested in politics, and i started to research how many ballots he would get on. what kind of impact he would have and then i thought, gosh, what if this guy really took off? what if he won? so i outlined a novel but thought and i title it, dark horse, and i actually outlined the chapters and i sat down and wrote the first chapter, and then every wrote the first chapter, i thought to myself, wait a minute. i'm 15 years old. i have no idea what i'm talking about. i've never worked on a presidential campaign. i mean, there's no way to write about this and have it been realistic because i don't know what really goes on. so i set it aside and when rick came to me, i said i've got this novel. i never wrote it. and that became dark horse. and it really -- i have to say, somewhat -- to my pleasant surprise, it was pretty well-reviewed and did pretty well, and it's a little dated now because things move nonpoli

as a democrat in 1968, and actually drove lyndon johnson out of the race. he forced johnson to the sideline. he decided to run as an independent. and, i was just a young political activist interested in politics. he started to research the battle to get on, what kind of impact he would have, and then i thought well gosh, what if this guy really took off? what if you one? and so i outlined the novel about that. and i titled it, dark horse. and i actually outlined the chapters. and i sat down and wrote the first chapter. and after he wrote the first chapter, i thought to myself, wait a minute. i am 15 years old. i haveut no idea what i am talking about. i have never worked on a presidentialal campaign. i mean, there's no way to write about this and have it be realistic because i don't know what really goes on. so i set it aside. and when rick came to me i said i've got this novel, i never wrote it. and that became dark horse. and really i have to say, to my pleasant surprise, it was pretty well reviewed. it did pretty well. and it is a little dated now. becaus

there were shenanigans lyndon , johnson was involved and several other politicians that we still hear about today. and there was a quick gavel at one point in the voting, but it essentially meant the army would keep thousands of men in the army. that they would not be sent home. what was important about it, even later marshall said, if ift had gone the other way, they had gotten rid of the draft it would have meant the war probably would have gone on until -- and this is marshall speaking -- until 1950 with a loss of at least another one million people worldwide. he said that is so important that one vote is. in the book, it is a cliffhanger. you sort of know it is going to happen. but i tried to write the book as if you did not know who is going to win world war ii. that is what narrative writing is all about, i wonder if he will pull this off? >> you told me the other day, spoiler alert, we won the war. right? [laughter] one of the things, you somewhat alluded to this early on, but one of the things i learned about from your book were the military maneuvers through the south. that w

the question about why no more 1976.s until we get to lyndon johnson was not the most charismatic figure, so he did not want to debate in 1964. very goldwater and kennedy who were friends from the senate odd about doing a whistle stop debate tour -- thought about doing a whistle stop debate tour. who is running in 1968 but richard nixon? he was not going to go back and debate after his experience in 1960. host: we go to nicole in england incoal in england -- cole england this morning. jfk, john f. think kennedy is the best orator? do you think that's why he won the 1960 election? guest: possibly one of the best rhetoricians in the presidency, i would say yes to that. he did not start that way. he was not a natural public speaker. he had taken public speaking lessons. i studied the relationship he had with eleanor roosevelt. she wrote to him in the early part of his presidency and said "you need to take more voice lessons." as we look back now and contrast him with some more recent candidates, he does seem to be a smooth talker, a fluent speaker, a great rhetorician, a great orator. he ha