lynn povich, we welcome you to democracy now! fascinating story, your own, but let's first talk about what happened to jill abramson in your assessment of what has taken place. >> first of all, joe was a towering figure and has been for a long time and the journalism business. she is an excellent reporter has done taps wars, a fabulous best to get of reporter. she ran a great washington bureau of "the new york times," and of course, for those of us in the media, her appointment was significant that a woman would be able to be the editor was extraordinary. this is a sad and upsetting and ending to her rain. i think the problems with jill that we have learned is that she has been consistently underpaid and the predispositions that she had as well. it is not clear what the total compensation issue was with jill , so we're not exactly sure how that they compare, but i think it shows how upset she was that at least, according to the article, she brought in a lawyer to talk about her salary and her compensation. i think what resonates

lynn povich, former senior editor at "newsweek" and author of "the good girls revolt."'s talk about the jill abrams dzon, we were both in new york and heard about the response and the new interview in vanity fair. am i happy i'm in this place? no. sulzberger use of we seemed strange until i realized it is the vanity fair piece. if he felt any vulnerability in the view of himself of gender diversity, he did not portray it. the paramount view was this was not a place that penalizes women. what is your takeaway from all of this? >> well, i think it has started a conversation because all of the initial conversation we had, she was paid less, she was difficult, fed into the kinds of discrimination that women in the media and workplace in general are often feel that they are generally paid less across the board and being a difficult woman and someone who asserts herself and stands up for herself, they are stigma tiesed for that. we know that. that's what sparked this enormous conversation which actually i think hopefully will be positive in the end. i think in this case, what