beyond utopia is directed by american film—maker madeleine gavin, and it's compelling and often heartbreaking phones to record footage to illustrate the defectors' escape. it makes you feel that you're an active participant in it. 26 million people live within the walls of that country, and we do not hear from them, we do not even acknowledge them. we do not even know they exist. at a certain point i was like, "this movie has to be made." and then i met pastor kim, and he and i, after many months of getting to know each other, realised we wanted to make the same kind of film, which really brought people up close and personal. pastor kim is a well—known figure in korea for helping individuals who want to defect from the north. i met him at a special screening of beyond utopia in seoul, organised by the national human rights commission of korea. at times on the phone, you were directing people on what to shoot while they were in north korea. how did you feel about doing that? translation: our organisation has been accumulating images i from north korea for the last 24 years, and our database of