this is a terrible example and people will be mad at me for using this, that mao zedong decided he wasng to attack the chinese bureaucracy, and here he was the absolute ruler, and he lost a cultural revolution. he is gone and they are still there. it is very difficult. is toice to any president try to appoint individuals who understand the agency but don't like what it is doing. change agents, as they say. and trump has done this. several of the individuals he has appointed were enemies of the agency. that is a start. the agencies eventually wear them down. host: there is a list of some 15 administrative agencies under the administrative procedures act. what is different about that than theen say -- department of state? prof. ginsberg: the department of state, the department of defense, these are important agencies, but they don't engage in rulemaking aside from internal housekeeping rules. they don't issue rules that affect you and me. whereas say the department of federaln, the various social agencies, the issue rules that have the effect of law on your knee. , thexample, even noaa w