so these are some of the reforms that we can take going way. >> mario poparozzi, is there a way to say this doesn't work? >> i think that the legal presence, there's no empir call research anywhere, that shows recidivism collection, or no deterrent effect, and no deterrent on people unable to pay their fines because they don't have the money. people are going to eat and put a roof over their head and take care of their children, and they want to pay that fine very badly, but they're not going to be able to do that. and it's not going to happen. and there's no research to support this. >> sarah, do we know what people who can't pay their fines are doing? >> we have heard the stories of the people paying their final nickels to these companies because they're so afraid to get locked up. one of our clients borrowed money to bake pies, and people are living out of cars and still trying to pay their fines because they're so afraid of going to jail. and it makes absolutely no sense to lock people up for charges like rolling through stop signs civil because fines. >> and i guess when minor chi

joining me now, sarah, the executive director for the center for human rights, and via skype, mario poparozzi, you heard at the beginning of the system, describe the system in place in her view, and would your members agree that that's what they're up to? >> well, yes for the most part. i don't think that people are up to making money in the it governmental side of things, though it may appear that way. but i think that the private companies that have sprang up have figured out to make a profit on the collection of fines, and also add supervision fees, which as noted, increased the cost. i think that has a natural life of its own after a while. they think they're going to be cutting money by collecting the fines, and it's certainly not cheap top collect a fine, and not somebody who can't pay. and at the end of the day, putting somebody in a jail cell or prison if they're on parole, to the tune of 180 to 2le $0 a day depending on where you are in the system doesn't make any sense at all. for those who think that it's helping us keep the lights on in the courthouse, we're bursting at the seams