let's go to mark francois . mark, let's go to mark francois. you were a senior figure on the defence select committee . do you defence select committee. do you worry about why we're involved in the yemen ? in the yemen? >> i think what we've done is right , >> i think what we've done is right, right. i think the prime minister when he when he told the commons today this was ultimately an act of self defence, was correct under international law, there is no question at all that we and the americans can take action to maintain freedom of navigation on the seas . maintain freedom of navigation on the seas. the houthis are using rockets to try and attack warships going about innocent passage. and if we don't do this, if we let them carry on doing it , then the red sea will doing it, then the red sea will be out. everything will have to go via the cape. and what that means for your viewers is that about a month or so from now, the price of their petrol is going skyrocket. so going to start to skyrocket. so what done is propose what we have done is p

. >> but you be team players >> but you won't be team players if mark francois has his way wrong. o if bill cash and mark francois have their way and amend the legislation, you won't vote so your team vote for it. so your only team players, agrees players, if your team agrees with legislation? with the legislation? >> well, i would ask bill cash and mark francois stop trying and mark francois to stop trying to the legislation to get to amend the legislation to get behind the prime minister. >> well, saying it's not >> well, they're saying it's not going effective at being a going to be effective at being a deterrent people to deterrent to deport people to rwanda. still not deported rwanda. we're still not deported anyonecourse haven't. and >> of course we haven't. and that's why the government is putting this bill. but putting forward this bill. but i am happy to support the. am quite happy to support the. >> want to see anyone >> do you want to see anyone deported >> do you want to see anyone depdo ad >> do you want to see anyone depdo ii >> do you want to see anyone depdo i want

>> i would ask bill cash >> well, i would ask bill cash and mark francois stop trying and mark francoisthe legislation, get behind prime minister behind the prime minister >> saying not >> well, they're saying it's not going effective at being going to be effective at being a deterrent deport to deterrent to deport people to rwanda. still not deported rwanda. we're still not deported anyone course anyone to rwanda of course we haven't. anyone to rwanda of course we havand why the government >> and that's why the government is forward this bill. is putting forward this bill. but happy to support the. >> do you want to see anyone deported to rwanda? do i want to see yeah. well want see anyone? yeah. well i want the stop. but do you the boats to stop. but do you want to see anyone deported to rwanda? >> if it works, the government says it's going to act as a deterrent. happy to accept. deterrent. i'm happy to accept. uh, think it will work on uh, do you think it will work on that? it will act as a that? i think it will act as a deterrent. but you think deterrent. yeah but do you think it a

you've got some on one side of your party, the likes of mark francois , um, and danny mark francois,and others threatening that they will not vote for this bill unless it is strengthened, unless key amendments are added to it, and then you've got the one nation group saying that they won't vote for it if it is amended. so the prime minister is stuck between and a is stuck between a rock and a hard meanwhile, robert hard place. meanwhile, robert jenrick braverman, jenrick and suella braverman, who in the who were involved in the drafting of the legislation, say it isn't enough. not it isn't strong enough. it's not going the boats, so it's going to stop the boats, so it's a disaster, isn't it? well of course, it's a hugely important issue made enormous issue where we've made enormous progress . progress. >> you know, small boat >> as you know, small boat crossings down third last year crossings down a third last year when many european countries, when in many european countries, um, seen sort of asylum um, you've seen sort of asylum numbers surging . i think um, you've seen sort of asy

you mark francois you know, mark francois lee, only the five only the leader of the five families themup the hill last time then back hill last time and then back down hill. it is all down the hill. it is all starting look little bit starting to look a little bit like all mouth and no trousers from of the tory from the right wing of the tory party, you think? yeah. party, do you think? yeah. >> i mean, firstly, i'd like to say how nice to see say how nice it is to see a woman who says that women should be at home in, out, at work, at 9:10 on weeknight. who has 9:10 on a weeknight. who has school age children at home? interesting there. interesting value system there. um, to your um, but going back to your actual i feel like if actual question, i feel like if i way involved in the i was in any way involved in the tory party, i would be so cross and i would to get and i would just want to get everybody in a room and bang all their heads together, because they're nicely. they're just not playing nicely. there teamwork here. there is no teamwork here. there's no shared vision. and i just,

, um, mark francois , who's regularly on this program, and leigh anderson, who we spoke to earlier, umh who want it to be tougher, they want to keep the european judges noses firmly this. they noses firmly out of this. they want to limit the right of appeal. and then you've got mps on the other side. like on the other side. people like robert buckland, law robert buckland, a former law chancellor, who , alarmed at the chancellor, who, alarmed at the idea, we might keep the european judges out of the process because they feel we would be then in breach of our international conventions. how does rishi marry these two does rishi sunak marry these two warring . warring sides. >> well, andrew, that's very well summarised. this is politics where there's no easy answers. the pm is walking down answers. the pm is walking down a very narrow ledge here between the right of the party, which wants him to firm up, make tougher, make more unlikely that, can frustrate that, uh, lawyers can frustrate attempts to send illegally arrived migrants to rwanda. deport them against the left of the party, whic

is reason think is it that reason i think i think mark francois likes it. >> he's a chairman of the european gino francois, i should say italian name. um, i think italian middle name. um, i think it adds an area of menace which isn't quite what danny kruger is like. >> what do you think's going to happen? bluster, happen? there's lots of bluster, and brexit and i keep mentioning brexit because with long because those of us with long teeth in the fang, we teeth long in the fang, we remember, don't we? the march up the again. but remember, don't we? the march up th> it does feel we're >> it does feel like we're between and back in between mv2 and mv3. back in 2019. readers who don't 2019. for readers who don't remember that that was the meaningful votes one and two, and gradually left with a and gradually you're left with a kind of 28 spartan tory kind of group of 28 spartan t

there's a big meeting and led by mark francois of the european research group happening at 5:00.ng for the amendments yesterday and voting the bill down today are two very different things because of the consequences if the bill gets voted down, there is no prospect of sending people to rwanda before the next election. they have nothing rishi sunak authority . we would be in authority. we would be in tatters . there'd be a potential tatters. there'd be a potential leadership challenge , change. leadership challenge, change. labour would try to get a general election. it would be de chaos. so we know that there's about ten people have said they're going to vote against they're going to vote against the bill tonight. people like the bill tonight. people like the former immigration minister robert jenrick, former home secretary suella braverman and former minister simon clarke among them. but also of the 60 who rebelled yesterday, said all of them are now saying well , all of them are now saying well, all yeah, we don't like the bill as it stands, but better to have the bill and hav

who, you know, other people as well , like example, who, you know, other people as well, like mark francoist mind saying this was on this show last night from what looked like a pub toilet. this show last night from what looked like a pub toilet . right? looked like a pub toilet. right? and i think that's an absolute shocker because if you are saying that you care so much about this bill and this bill is so important to the future of british society and to the fabnc british society and to the fabric of british society, and you're going to put forward amendments and you're to amendments and you're going to rip apart over it, and rip a party apart over it, and you're going to divide the pubuc you're going to divide the public over it. right? could you do viewers the common do me and my viewers the common courtesy popping courtesy, please, of not popping up at about 9:10? from what looks like a pub toilet? okay if you really care that much about it, i found that absolutely astonishing , right? what would astonishing, right? what would you say to people like that who have public up the hill hav

he's got in the one side, he's got the five families, don corleone in mark francois coordinating themof the centre keep the remnants of the centre sort it sort of liberal tories, as it were. uh, on board, led at the moment by robert buckland, the former cabinet minister who's doing spadework. but within doing the spadework. but within the david doing the spadework. but within the will david doing the spadework. but within the will be david doing the spadework. but within the will be trying david doing the spadework. but within the will be trying to�*avid doing the spadework. but within the will be trying to atid cameron will be trying to at least hold something a line least hold something of a line for their vision of toryism, which what they originally which was what they originally elected which such elected on, which seemed such a long but come on, long time ago. but come on, isn't it time for to be put isn't it time for us to be put out our misery have that out of our misery and have that may election? there's still time we we we can all get campaigning. we wouldn't to have nine w

mark francois of the erg has called a meeting at 5:00.o do, but the government is hoping basically to call their bluff because if they lose this , if because if they lose this, if the bill fails , then the the bill fails, then the government have nothing . they're government have nothing. they're back to square one. they won't have time to get flights off before a general election if that ever happens anyway. and then all sorts of questions about the prime minister, whose authority would be absolutely shot. so a really high stakes day to day, i don't know what will happen, but my gut feeling is in the end it will go through not long until we find out absolutely . absolutely. >> that's katherine forster as my view now we're going to join now by a man with a very shrewd political eye who's been writing about crime . he's in governments about crime. he's in governments for many, many years. the sun's eminence kyrees political eminence, greece trevor kavanagh, trevor, trevor, you and i have written about these things many times . if but thing