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joining us now is senior writer at slate mark joseph stern. mark, we have not necessarily heard anything different from the trump legal team in response to what was just filed overnight. as we know, that was a very last minute deadline saturday evening. what do you make of this argument and their response? anything different? >> the trump legal team is sticking to the basic outline of their arguments the whole time. as you said, the president is immune from any kind of prosecution due to illegal activities that he may have engaged in while in the white house. i will say this filing does move the focus a little bit more toward this question of the president engaging in official acts. originally, this whole argument was centered around the president being the president. when trump is president, he gets to do what he wants without judicial second guessing. the district judge in this case, tanya chutkan, really sharply rejected that argument. look, he might have been president then, but he's not president now. there is no divine right of former pre

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with us now for more is mark joseph stern, senior writer covering courts and the law at slate. know, i'm dubbing myself as the vice president of your fan club. let's start here. what stood out to you in this latest bombshell report from propublica? >> the one detail that really stood out was the timing. we are told that justice thomas made this veiled threat to resign from the court in early 2000, after attending an all-expenses-paid conference at a luxury resort which, shocker, he did not report on his ethics disclosure forms. and of course, that meant that the presidential election was coming up. and al gore at the time seemed poised to potentially win. so, it looks like justice thomas was playing hardball. he actually set a timeline for this republican congressman he spoke with. he said, one or two justices might step down within a year. and so, i think it shows that he was really serious about getting the ball going here. and so were republicans who rallied about him. you know, they pressured not just congress but the administrative office of the courts, the bureaucracy tha

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and mark joseph stern, senior writer covering the courts and the law for slate magazine. thank you both for joining me. george, i really think adam serwer is on to something in the way that this state supreme court ruling is gonna test the bounds of originalism that clarence thomas and sam alito and justice roberts, all the conservatives on the bench say they are beholden to. what do you make of this? >> yeah, i don't think there's any way you can construe section three of the 14th amendment to exclude the presidency. and the fact, the dissent in last night's opinion did not bother with that argument, which was very, very transparent, and very, very weak, on part of the district court which otherwise found trump to be an insurrectionist. i mean the fact of the matter is, you don't even have to go into the congressional record, or the congressional intent here. you only need to look at the language. and the fact of the matter is, when it comes to origin listen and textualism, the sort that scalia has taught us all. it's, if the language is clear, you don't have to go any f

also with us mark joseph stern, writer in covering the courts. marking a can't go to you right now, so i can continue to cough. i can ask you what your assessment is about how long the d. c. court may take to adjudicate this issue? >> you know it really all depends on what panel of judges takes this case. and it's randomly assigned. there are four republican judges on the d. c. circuit who have shown some inclination towards running interference for trump to varying degrees. and if two of those judges land on this panel, that panel could really draw out the process. they could take quite a long time to hear the case, issue a decision, in past appeals to the d. c. circuit, these cases have usually just by chad's gone to liberal panels which have worked really well to expedite the process and get an answer out fast because they don't want to delay justice. but if this does land in the hand of conservative judges on that court, we could be waiting for months and months until we get a decision. and all that time judge chutkan's proceedings would almos

plus senior writer for slate, mark joseph stern.k with me at the table former assistant united states attorney and president of the leadership conference on civil and human rights, maya wiley. welcome to all of you. jesse, let me start with you and the wonderful reporting from propublica on this, which is by the way just a new installment in a lot of great reporting that you're doing on the topic. what's the conclusion here that one draws? thomas was dissatisfied with his income, shared that information with some people, and then in the midst of that was developing relationships with people who could help him do better on the salary he was earning. >> yeah, well, we are trying to provide the facts here. and people can draw their own conclusions about the timing and what happened. but clearly thomas was deeply in debt. he didn't come from a huge amount of wealth. so he didn't have, you know, some kind of big family pat rimowny to fall back on. and he was making a lot of money for an average person but he certainly -- you know, he's m

. >> mark joseph stern, thank you as always for your time and analysis, sir. i appreciate it. that is our show for tonight. now, it is time for the last word with my friend katie phang in for lawrence, good evening, katie. >>> good evening, alex, hope you have a great weekend. and to all of you joining us tonight, our breaking news. $148 million, today, a washington d. c. jury ordered rudy giuliani to pay 148 million, $169,000 to the two atlanta election workers who he falsely accused of election fraud, after donald trump lost the 2020 presidential election. the case began on monday of this week and, despite very vocal promises to do so, in the end, giuliani did not take the stand in his own defense. that left the jury with little to consider of the harrowing and compelling testimony from ruby freeman and shaye moss, who many met during the house select hearings. >> i stayed away from my home for approximately two months. it was horrible. i felt homkeless. i felt, i can't believe this person has caused just much damage to me and my family. to have to leave my home that i lived