argument for causation were just as political as arguing that martin van buren was somehow responsible. the wigs argued for martin van baurn'sgued for banks and merchants and these international forces, so even when we try to think about it as banks being at the center of it, that's a political argument that got shaped during the financial crises themselves. >> in the 2008 crisis, we didn't really have too many runs on banks per se. >> mm-hmm. the government stepped in largely to rescue a number of financial institutions. i was struck by in 1837 that there was -- there was certainly a call for the government to step in. is that a common theme throughout -- throughout the financial crises in history? >> well, it's interesting. in 1837, it's often thought that there were these big bank runs, but there actually weren't that many bank runs. the banks themselves the shut themselves down trading money for specie, gold and silver coin before there could be widespread bank runs, so there weren't many widespread bank runs at that point either but the call for government intervention was, again, a politicized argument in the 1830s. th