my guest today is the historian and veteran civil rights campaigner mary frances berry. it take to engineer genuine change? mary frances berry, welcome to hard talk. thank you forjoining me from new orleans. thank you very much for having me. where having beautiful weather here. there is a bit of a hurricane through your window. let us hurricane through your window. let us focus on the storms that have been sweeping across america in recent days. the whole world has been watching the killing of george floyd in minneapolis. you have in historians i:e.. does all of this feel different to you from previous cases of the killing and police detention of unarmed black man? now, what's different about this one, we had video before when eric garner was chokehold in new york city. and saidi was chokehold in new york city. and said i can't breathe. and that was just to remind everybody, that was six years ago. so we had video then. in earlier protest before that time on most occasions and earlier murders of unarmed black people, we didn't have video. what happened this time i think,

historian and author of history teaches us to resist, that's mary frances berry.or of "good and mad: the revolutionary power of women ae's power." >> protests is an expression of your first amendment right to petition the government and to express your point of view. >> it's foundational, fundamental to how change happens. >> so it's as american as apple pie. ♪ >> if you were making quantitative study of the relationship between street action and legislative change, it's going to be hard to find that one-to-one response. selma is one. >> we are going to walk nonviolently and peacefully -- >> if you tornado the other cheek, if you -- you turn the other cheek, if you suffered violence, the reward is that you get change from the people who observe you suffering, and you achieve your objective even though you may personally be suffering. >> i don't think that's too strong a line to draw, to say that the march on selma was essential to the passing of the voting rights act. i do think it's really worth thinking about the length of that struggle. selma is the end of a 10