we're back with joe rago, "wall street journal" editorial board members, mary anastasia o'grady and mattamensky also joins the panel. so, mary, are you buying the claim that the white house has offered that the president didn't know that the nsa was listening in on world leaders? >> you know, paul, if the president didn't know, the u.s. is even in worse shape than we thought all along. i mean, first of all, the nsa, everything they do is supervised. this wasn't some rogue operation. this is what they do. and you know, a lot of the data we get from europe is collected in this way. >> well, by -- and also collected -- >> with the help of the europeans, yeah. so the idea that he didn't know about this suggests that he's either not being truthful, or not doing his job, at all. >> yeah, the implication of that, and this idea that the nsa is somehow a rogue agency, like in a hollywood film where they just got all these people going out on their own and listening to whoever they feel like just because, well, it feels good, and we can do it so we will do it. that's not really plausible. >> the n