there are others, and i'm going to quote here, matthew goodwin, who i'm sure you've had debates withn the past, because he's a british academic who is now very sceptical about immigration. he says that immigration to the uk has been dominated over the past 20 years by low wage, low skill people. he says that there is a myth of, quote, "migration benefits." but he says the reality is that it has exacerbated flatlining growth and productivity. it's only served the interests of big business. well, there are maverick people like him that say that. but the big institutions that have done the analysis in the uk, including the treasury and associated institutions, as well as institutions like the oecd and the imf, reputable institutions, show the opposite. and this is the case both with the uk and the us, where it's very clear. very recently, for example, the imf came out with a report talking about the benefits of migration. to increases in the cost of skilled labour across the board, both skilled and unskilled, we're seeing it. and of course, the numbers in the uk aren't only about labour

so, as matthew goodwin says, it really serves big business, doesn't necessarily serve...rs are... ..the more poor and disadvantaged local people. it serves all of us. when we go and want an operation in the nhs, a hip replacement, or we want something done, it's going to be migrants that do it very often. it's also going to be migrants that are going to generate the jobs and the income for the economy over the medium term. but the reason people are feeling anxious is because there's not enough affordable homes, there's not enough investment in public transport and in other areas. 0ne doesn't address the problem of migration by saying, "keep all the migrants out, "we're going to fix our problems." the problems will become worse. right. in the course of writing this book over recent months, you must have looked at, for example, what's been happening in sweden, where there's been very serious concern about law and order, security, with some recently immigrant communities essentially seeming to be centres of crime and antisocial behaviour, to the point where a former prime mi

woke progressives in the media and in politics, whose views politics professor matthew goodwin estimatesrepresent a maximum of 15% of british public opinion, take great pleasure in mantras like diversity is our strength. whilst insulated from the reality of parallel communities in working class towns where the language is not spoken , where language is not spoken, where british values are not shared, and where the rule of law is taken with a pinch of salt . the taken with a pinch of salt. the trouble that we've seen on the streets , which i once again streets, which i once again absolutely condemn, is a symptom of an ignored problem. and caused by the gaslighting of those who govern us. why shouldn't people be angry about vast legal net migration, which has a direct impact on the availability of housing? school places and nhs resources? not to mention social cohesion? they should be angry. why shouldn't people be angry about illegal immigration with people entering the country whose backgrounds and legal status we do not know, and legal status we do not know, and the accommodation of who

goodwin, the pollster and academic, alongside me, bill rammell. do you want to respond to what he was saying before the break? >> yeah, the problem with matthewhe takes some things that are said by the worst excesses of the far left and then represents them as the mainstream within this labour government. it's not true. however, you went on to bring in legal but harmful laws. legal but harmful. and i said it. no, i said it earlier. it's been floated out there. i will be very surprised if ultimately that comes into legislation. >> do you think it should do. >> do you think it should do. >> no, no, because it's the point i made earlier. the only line you can draw is violence and advocacy of violence. anything else in terms of what's acceptable and what's not not acceptable and what's not not acceptable is impossible to enforce. >> yeah, i just don't want to see speech curtailed . that is see speech curtailed. that is not illegal. we have something, you know, the common law english common law, which which the legislation that i suspect labour will end up bringing forward directly conflicts with that. but if it's not, if it's not banned, if it's

goodwin, thanks very much forjoining me. really appreciate it . and if you want appreciate it. and if you want to hear more from matt, i would highly recommend his substack, which is at matthew goodwin.organt. check it out . it is brilliant. check it out. and next on free speech nation is civilisation under siege. we'll be addressing that with jacob reynolds. don't go welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me. andrew doyle. so what is civilisation? how does it emerge? is it under attack ? it emerge? is it under attack? these are very big questions. well, jacob reynolds is the convenor of the academy, which is a forthcoming weekend for free thinkers to discuss these very issues . and jacob joins me very issues. and jacob joins me now. welcome to the show. thanks a lot . jacob, tell us, what is a lot. jacob, tell us, what is the academy? yeah, well, the academy is a weekend residential, kind of intellectual getaway , if you intellectual getaway, if you like, where people of various different backgrounds and intellectual persuasions come, >> we have a weekend of lectures, of debates, of seminars. we kind of try and educate ourselves. we sometimes say it's