former atf special agent in charge matthew horace. retired chief deputy u.s. marshal matthew fogg.l start with you. they're looking at the possibility some of the tools they used to break out were smuggled in this hamburger meat. maybe given by someone on the inside. what do you make of that? >> i think that's just absurd. when you really think about the fact that the type of provisions they have in security in a prison to bring in meat and actually stow away -- >> apparently the meat did not go through some metal detector. >> that's what i heard. again, that shows you the lack of security. even on that floor. when you're talking about the fact that this was an honor system. a lot of times honor systems the guards get very lax with the prisoners. every now and then something like that might happen. i can't picture something as large as a power drill or something -- >> i could never understand tom, how two convicted murderers get into the honor system. i don't care what the honor system -- they should not be in an honor system right? >> no this place is starting to sound like an all

matthew horace we'll continue our conversation, even though there's been no contact with the suspect according to police still unclear what it means about the demise of the alleged gunman. authorities are thinking that he's dead but moments ago, an hour hour and a half ago, where police say the alleged gunman cut off negotiations and so contact was severed at that point. so we're going to continue to watch the situation here with these live images. of this armored vehicle being surrounded by authorities as well as a robot, more live coverage. when we come back. illuminate dullness lift sagging diminish the look of dark spots and smooth the appearance of wrinkles. high performance skincare™ only from roc®. laura baker is about to refinance her home. her daughter lilly is about to spell the word "scary" for the first time. neither is afraid. buy in. quickenloans/home buy. refi. power. new york state is reinventing how we do business by leading the way on tax cuts. we cut the rates on personal income taxes. we enacted the lowest corporate tax rate since 1968. we eliminated the income ta

. >> joining us now once again, our law enforcement analyst tom fuentes fuentes, matthew horace who's joining us there he is from new york. retired chief deputy u.s. marshall here with us in washington. matthew, let me start with you, the franklin county sheriff believes these two guys are still operating together they haven't split up based on all the searches that you've conducted, what do you believe? >> it's amazing to me i believe they would be 13r5i9ed by now. if these guys were together they would find their way around. most of the time they would separate, knowing they would be targets. >> if you see two guys walking around people are going to get nervous, much more quickly than if you see an individual right tom? >> well that's true. i think they're still in the mode of needing each other for their own survival if they're trying to get food break into cabins keep a look out for somebody coming toward them it's easier with two people than one. >> matt horace. you heard a prison guard said security was lax. do you think it's possible that tools could have been hidden in this fr

former atf special agent in charge matthew horace.ere there are a limited number of people. if he wanted to kill a lot of people he could have gone to the church on a sunday morning. >> it could be we don't know all the answers to that why that particular as much as at that particular time. maybe we'll never know. but they'll be looking to try to talk about that with him. >> if these churches asked you for advice whether to beef up security at this sensitive moment what would you say? >> i'd say maybe temporarily. for a short time just because of a copycat killer that might be out there. not for the long run. >> i agree with tom. we're hoping this was a one-off, one-time deal with a real bad guy and hoping no one else is going to do a copycat crime. >> as you know roof was targeting these victims allegedly because of their race. in this picture you see him wearing a jacket. that's not the picture i want to show. there's a jacket of him with a sweatshirt he's got an apartheid-era south africa flag he's got a flag of row indonesia sha.

former atf special agent matthew horace., you met gene palmer this prison guard facing they felonies one misdemeanor in connection with this here risk escape. tell us what he told you, describe his demeanor. >> he was extremely nervous. i can honestly say in meeting, when i met with him, he seemed really concern the. he knew what was coming. it was just about two days after he had spent 14 hours with state police telling them what he knew telling them what he did, what he didn't do. he knew. he knew he was about to face serious charges. he was scared. he was scared for his life his family and the shame that he brought upon himself and the community, really. this is a very proud man. he was a corrections officer for 28 years. loved the job. now it has brought him a lot of shame. such angst and such anger sort of within him. because a part of him felt betrayed. betrayed by joyce, betrayed by the guards who he had spent many years building a relationship with. to know they would do something like this i think gave him a lot of

matthew horace is here, former atf executive, and a former navy s.e.a.l. also with me.about the hunt for david sweat, a local sheriff saying he is alone and desperate and exhausted and fatigued and hungry and he just needs to make a mistake. how hopeful are you they are going to get him? >> i think we are both very hopeful and i think the biggest mistake was the fact they left that cabin, and the second biggest mistake is for whatever reason matt decided to shoot at this car, pinpointing where they were at and leading officers for the first time directly to them. >> what do you do with the working theory, they were together, that's what the authorities believe until yesterday when matt was killed and now no scent trail or eyes on him, and are they working on the right theory they were together? >> i think they are absolutely working on the right theory, and they are following the leads, and they would not be putting these resources into the event at this rate if they did not have good information. >> we were sitting here last saturday when the search focussed on 300 mil

. >> i want to believe in matthew who are ras horace a 20-year-old veteran and jonathan gilliam. now that david sweat is now on his own, do you have a much better chance of getting him, locking him in now that he doesn't have a partner in crime? >> i think even more than the fact he doesn't have a partner in crime. let's start with that. he doesn't have a partner in crime. they can't take shifts to sleep or get any rest. even more than that the fact is what happened yesterday alerted law enforcement as to 100% the specific area where they were at. besides the cabin where they were their dna was found. this is the second time they have had definitive proof that they are in this location. they were able to respond quicker and now they pretty much have him pinned in at least we hope so. i just wouldn't be surprised if within the next 24 hours he doesn't get caught or they don't have a shootout. he is going to start getting tired pretty soon. >> obviously, getting very tired and very weary. what do you think he has been doing to be so elusive for all this time evading police? >> i th

>> matthew horace many more details are emerging about joyce mitching's relationship. he was in the honor block, if you will. what do you make about that? what if anything will help in the search for these two guys? >> well number one, i don't think anything we hear we should be surprised at. we've heard things day in and day out related to the security of the prison. this was a security breach, nothing more, nothing less. the fact they were in this honor belong if you will and one of the them at least, according to this other inmaid used to go a few times into some back room with this woman. it sounds like some sort of fraternity frat house. >> actually it does. what happens, a lot of times these situations -- everybody wants this thing to run smoothly. the bottom line is sometimes guards will do exactly this. i'm sure there are a lot of protocols, thinking that nothing -- if i turn my head this time or that time it's going to be better for me as a guard. that's why a lot of times contrabad is introduced -- how do they get drugs? because a lot of guards this is a diff

matthew horace a former atf special agent in charge. guys thanks very much for joining us. matthew, how worried should the community there in upstate new york be right now? >> well i think they should be very worried on several levels. number one, this was a failure and a compromise in a security system on so many different levels. at the strategic level, prison management they're supposed to be policies in the place to avoid this. at the tactical level. what guard or what employee or what contractor was involved? at tf i'm sure at fbi, we consider these people to be the worst of the worst. so the community should be concerned about their escape and also if this can happen in the future. >> you have no doubt these two murderers, these prisoners, had outside help? >> this was an inside job and an outside job. how did they get information about the architecture of the prison and where did they go and who took them where once they got out? >> do you agree? >> completely. i think because they had to have help with getting the tools and getting the layout of the underground part

joining me now to talk about this and more former atf agent matthew horace and former fbi agent jonathanilliam. thank you for being with me. i appreciate it. first off, matthew, what do you make of that that the gunman allowed someone to live so she could tell the tale? >> that was all about control. we've seen that in the past and we've seen it again this time but you never can tell what people are going to do in these situations. several things come to mind about these case. number one, he's the male. most active shooter incidents in the united states have involved males. number two, he was a lone wolf. most incidents, involve one person. as long as law enforcement can identify what's on the front of the vehicle, where that vehicle came from and who owns it you can believe even with this somewhat disguised, someone knows who this is. >> we have close-up photos of the police pictures and i want, skoothy, if you can put one up on the screen. jonathan and i were trying to figure out what he has on his nose if anything. jonathan you've been able to study for about a half hour now. can you

and matthew horace former atf, special agent in charge.c we heard the governor of new york andrew cuomo, he said escaped prisoners could be headed toward vermont might be in vermont for all we know. officials are working to secure that border area between the two states. will it be harder for authorities to find these two killers if they actually make it out of new york state? >> well, it its nots not going to be any harder than in new york state. they're going to work very closely with the vermont officials there. and i'm sure they're in contact with canadian officials too. any state or community that is contiguous to where this escape took place they're going to be very much part of the search. and very much part of the investigation as well too as it goes forward. >> tom, what do you make of this woman, joyce mitchell who worked in the prison has been questioned by authorities. she knew the two guys. her family says she absolutely had nothing involved. but it is an intriguing element in what is going on right now? >> it is wolf. the unf

. >> matthew horace thank you very much. >>> cnn speaking to bill clinton about his wife's republicanthe challenges hillary clinton faces for the race to the white house. i'm caridee. i've had moderate to severe plaque psoriasis most of my life. but that hasn't stopped me from modeling. my doctor told me about stelara® it helps keep my skin clearer. with only 4 doses a year after 2 starter doses... ...stelara® helps me be in season. stelara® may lower your ability to fight infections and increase your risk of infections. some serious infections require hospitalization. before starting stelara® your doctor should test for tuberculosis. stelara® may increase your risk of cancer. always tell your doctor if you have any sign of infection have had cancer, or if you develop any new skin growths. do not take stelara® if you are allergic to stelara® or any of its ingredients. alert your doctor of new or worsening problems including headaches, seizures, confusion and vision problems. these may be signs of a rare potentially fatal brain condition. serious allergic reactions can occur. tell your

the former atf special agent in charge matthew horace.ormer chief inspector for the fugitive task force in the new york/new jersey area, thanks for joining us. what does that mean investigating a heroin ring inside that prison? >> right. they would have jurisdiction for the drug trafficking of heroin but the political corruption or police corruption or public official corruption that enabled it. so any of the corrections officers, employees of the prison employees of the government that might be involved in this they could have them for corruption charges. and the actual heroin charges for any of the others that were trafficking or involved in the conspiracy. >> sounds like it was a horrible mistakes, blunders going on. could they shut this prison down? >> i don't know what new york's going to decide to do with this place. i think there could probably be a change of management expected. >> they've got to investigate this. tim, we heard david sweat, he's in serious condition, no longer in critical condition. he is talking to authorities ab

joining you the former atf special agent in charge the security expert matthew horace and director ofnalyst tom fuentes. tom, they've got her cell phone records. presumably they're going to look at that. she's making statements to the law enforcement over there. what else could they use her for to try to get maybe some indication of whether these two guys? >> i think they have all the time in the word to get as much from her. we're hearing all these stories that she puts out. they were going to kill her husband. they were going to drive 700 miles. she was going to pick them up. we don't know if she's lying. then we don't know if they were lying. all the statements coming out as pure fact shouldn't be because it's all guesswork on everybody's part that it's the truth. >> do you think they've gotten, matthew matthew, everything out of her that they could that she could help share to find these guys? >> i would absolutely agree with my colleague tom fuentes, what we don't know is the information they're garnering from speaking to other guards prison guards and others there. i think there

. >> matthew horace thanks so much. >> have a great day and be safe. >>> still ahead, controversy overer: fred this controversy is putting a lot of pressure on 2016 republican candidates to weigh in. should the flag stay up or should it be brought down? all the latest on the tricky politics coming up next. good host, good host ♪ no matter where he's hosting. ♪ stella artois host beautifully i have type 2 diabetes. i started with pills. and now i take a long-acting insulin at night. i take mine in the morning. i was trying to eat right, stay active. but i wasn't reaching my a1c goal anymore. man: my doctor says diabetes changes over time. it gets harder to control blood sugar spikes after i eat and get to goal. my doctor added novolog® at mealtime for additional control. now i know. novolog® is a fast-acting, injectable insulin and it works together with my long-acting insulin. proven effective. the mealtime insulin doctors prescribe most. available in flexpen®. vo: novolog® is used to control high blood sugar in adults and children with diabetes. take novolog® as directed. eat a meal w

we also have with me here in new york tom fuentes, with me former atf agent matthew horace and on scapeformer fbi special agent. let me begin with you. given this credible sighting has been called in what is going on in this manhunt? >> law enforcement has to establish a good perimeter. they also have to have paramount in their concerns is the safety of the public that lives within that perimeter, it's a difficult to thing to do it requires a lot of manpower and coordination, because you're going to have a response from numerous state, local and federal agencies. additionally, as my atf colleague indicated, it can be good news and bad news. it allows people cover so they can move unobserved. but certainly law enforcement has technology they can utilize to their advantage during periods of darkness. >> rick thank you, stay with me let's talk about some of the technology tom. >> main technology would be infrared and helicopters. you see the helicopters circling a human body or an animal body will leave the heat signature that shows up as a light color on the infrared screen. the cooler br

let's talk more about this with matthew horace who is former atf. also with me former fbi assistant director tom fuentes. tom, let's take a look. if we just break down some of the numbers here from the fbi, it's incredibly disturbing. the statistics from crime reports across the country in 2013 what law enforcement agencies found is that of more than 3,000 single bias racially motivated hate crimes more than 60%, take a look i think we have a graphic to show you here 60% were motivated by anti-black or anti-american bias. what does this tell us? >> it just tells us that there is racism alive and well out there. it also tells us that there is a greater likelihood of whites that think that to be around black people to be able to carry out these acts. they are not going to in all corners of the u.s. constantly see people that look like they're from other groups that are also on their hate list but in the case of blacks they are more likely to interact and encounter being around black people. it's easier for them to carry out an attack. >> i was stunned

bring back in our cnn law enforcement analyst tom fuentes, atf former special agent in charge matthew horace police chief of department philip banks. phil to you first. this is interesting. this is a new tidbit we have just learned from authorities. they say that not only did she have a relationship with one of these guys that she actually had relationships with both sweat and matt. what does that mean? it makes you think romantic relationships. is that necessarily what it is? >> i'm not sure. that's something that certainly needs to be looked at. relationships can mean a lot of things to a lot of individuals. in fact if it was a romantic relationship then certainly review of the protocols taking place inside of that facility needs to be examined. because to try to get an understanding of how can their relationship develop in that particular manner? so hopefully it was not a romantic relationship. certainly there's a lot of the questions that need to be answered so we can assure we never have something like this happen again. >> matt how common would that be? relationships, whether it's roma

. >> matthew horace thank you very much. to be continued. >> great to be here thank you. >>> to the case against the charleston church gunman the justice department is likely to pursue hate crime charges. we'll take a look at what that means for the confessed killer ahead. ahhh. beautiful day in baltimore where most people probably know that geico could save them money on car insurance, right? you see the thing is geico well, could help them save on boat insurance too. hey! okay...i'm ready to come in now. hello? i'm trying my best. seriously, i'm...i'm serious. request to come ashore. geico. saving people money on more than just car insurance. woman: for soft beautiful feet i have a professional secret: amopé and its premium foot care line. the new amopé pedi perfect foot file gives you soft beautiful feet effortlessly. its microlumina rotating head buffs away hard skin even on those hard-to-reach spots. it's amazing. you can see it and feel it. my new must-have for soft, beautiful feet. amopé pedi perfect. soft, beautiful

. >> that was former atf special agent matthew horace. >>> intelligence and law enforcement sources sayo concerns of possible isis inspired attacks in this country over the fourth of july weekend. those concerns were voiced before friday's deadly attacks. peter king a member of the homeland security committee said friday's attacks showed the threat of ice is inspired terror must not be ignored in this country. >> what does that say about the reach of isis? >> they are incomparable as far as being able to reach the disaffected and deranged and also reach the idealogically committed. police officers attacked with hatchets and attacks in garland, texas. >> let's bring in alan goldman, co-author of "enemies within" good to see you. from your experience as a national security reporter does this warning feel different than others issued over the years? >> no not particularly. the fbi is taking this seriously and they are -- the particular field offices across the country are spun up. and they are watching the people they need to watch. there's a large number of people. i think there are 4500

matt horace former atf special agent in charge he's a security expert. matthewretired chief deputy u.s. marshal. tom, you heard governor cuomo, he could be anywhere heck be in mexico. where does that leave authorities as they search for these guys? >> searching from here to mexico. i think that they were going by the leads of the dogs finding the scent a couple of days ago, the candy wrappers. now they're looking at the possibility that maybe they were long gone and the dogs hit on the wrappers from the prison because half the county probably works in that prison brings candy out, throws wrappers away. possibly the dogs did hit on the scent coming from the prison and they're long gone. so they just don't know and they can't rule it out is the other problem. even though it still looks like they might be close, they should be close, they probably didn't get far, but they might have. >> you think they got far or they're still in the area? >> it's two ways to be honest with you. >> you just can't tell. >> i believe there's the possibility they got a place somewhere,

matthew fogg a retired chief deputy u.s. marshal and former atf special agent in charge matt horace.nks for being here to talk with us about it. this is sore of interesting. authorities believe these guys are still together the two of them have not gone off in separate directions. is there a reason reason to believe that? >> the bottom line is because they don't have any other information that they're separated, and then of course with the bloodhounds that picks up on scents and so forth. the last thing they have is they were together when they escaped. >> that's the last thing they have make it just makes sense to them and certainly they hope to find them together i would think they hope that. >> tom, we got a close look at just how many buildings there are in this area. you're talking about vacated vacation homes. there are even ones we sort of zoom in and look there might be shedding in the backyards of some of these homes that certainly overnight they guys could hide in. officers are going door to door but what's that process like? even though there's so many officers 800 officia

. >>> atf special agent in charge matt horace and we have cnn law enforcement analyst tom fuentes and retired chief deputy u.s. marshal matthewfog. matthew, you have mitchell. she's got a new attorney who says she is quote, distraught and, quote, probably shocked to be in the limelight. i mean this is a woman who as we know now might have been plotting to kill her husband with the prison escapees. do you buy what her attorney says? >> i don't understand why she would be shocked other than the fact she tried to help two guys get out of prison. so if anything she's shocked about the fact that she's being charged, but when it comes to what they're saying about trying to kill her husband and all of that he's there to visit her today. so what do we get out of that? >> what do we get out of that tom? he visits today. he now has a lawyer. initially the d.a. thought that he might have been involved and now it turns out that there was a plot to kill him. so where does that leave him? >> we don't know if any of that stuff's true. just because she said -- everything that has gone on in this case all of the source information. >> she cou