i'm joined by matthew stadlen matthew. this is the third time now we've seen a significant turnout. this looks like it's going to be the biggest one. over a thousand tractors, thousands of protesters from all over the for the four corners of the land. but you can't help but feeling that there's something of a mexican standoff now. it's the third time they've said the same thing. the labour party, pardon the pun of digging in, ploughing the pun of digging in, ploughing the same furrow. do you think that this protest, as heartfelt as it is and no doubt resonates with a lot of people watching this show, is it going to have any impact? the labour party seem pretty tin eared to all of this. >> i mean, i. »- >> i mean, i. >> get the sense, martin, that you're giving up, and if you're giving up as one of the flag bearers, flag. wavers for a reversal of this tax, and i suspect the writing is on the wall, i thought right from the beginning that the government wouldn't change tack. there's thousands of them there. they're not giving up. >> but how. >> but how. >> many people are there in the

matthew stadlen. good to see you all. so, matthew, first of all, is reform needed?there any prospect that it could succeed this time? >> it seems like it is needed. and this isn't just about the cost to the treasury and therefore to the taxpayer of benefits. and the bill for sickness benefits seems to be spiralling with the probability that it will spiral further in the coming years. this is also about, as you say, growth. and if more people are working, then the economy has a better chance of growing rachel reeves interestingly, because this has benefits, has been a dividing line, i think, between the left and right on and off since the 19805. and right on and off since the 1980s. and the question of where you draw the line on the welfare state is a really important one. but interestingly, rachel reeves herself in the past has said that labour would be tougher on benefits than the tories. she subsequently said she may be got her language wrong or sort of inflated. what she was saying got the tone wrong. but she has also said that when the benefit bills go up, the s