did the new york times, did news week, did maureen dowd, did this go too far? >> they weren't the only catholics writing about this. peggy noonen in saturday's wall street journal she praised the new york times in this case and some others, the immediate kra do a good job of forcing the catholic church, political or religious to confront some of its inner darkness. i thought larry goodstein's piece was well researched and this is in a newspaper openly hostile to what the catholic church stands for. it's a pretty good piece and i think it forces the vatican to deal with something it needs to deal with. >> so, judy the pope has become the media's target. is it coincidence it's during holy week? that's what one commentator suggested, but i'm struck by the stakt that another commentator in the atlantic said hey, what do you do if you're in trouble if you're a politician, richard nixon, you blame the media and that's what the catholic church is doing, blame the media for doing its job and reporting on abuse cases that the church should have taken care of a long time

then we have an interesting story about david and maureen dowd and have a devastating column that maureenwrote in the early part of the nomination fight how that came to be and how this kind of mischievous between the hollywood mogul and "the new york times" columnist healthy adult one of the first severe blows to the notion of clinton's defense inevitability. >> host: let's dig into that more. mark halperin on what john was just talking about about the column. there is a back story there. she was trying to write the column before she got him to agree to do it. >> guest: she was. as john said it's an interesting case to not only prominent people but laconic people. the most prominent "new york times" columnist of our time. i would say in many ways and then david geffen this if went to hollywood figure. david geffen, part of dreamworks with steven spielberg and jeffrey katzenberg were big supporters. they raised a lot of money for them. david stayed in the lincoln bedroom but he, like so many prominent liberals including in hollywood turned against the clintons. he was unhappy with preside

with maureen dowd heard david geffen speak at the 92nd wives yet new york and any question about the clintons, about hillary's chances, david geffen was very tough on hillary clinton, and maureen in the audience was struck not just by how tough he was in his talking about the clintons were out of, but the audience reaction to qdr in new york, the state that hillary clinton represents, and the audience seemed very enthusiastic about the notion of criticism of hillary clinton. so over the course of a long period of time, maureen is lobbying david geffen to take what he said at that event, amplified it to her in an interview. and by coincidence, she is out in california on the night before david geffen is going to host a major fundraiser for barack obama, she convinces him to do the interview. the. >> what year is this bequest this is 2007. this is a critical period, because barack obama has gotten in the race. he is clearly create a lot of excitement, and in communities that are vitally important, if you're trying to become the democratic nominee for president, hollywood, new york, libe

when maureen dowd hurt even given to speak in new york -- heard david geffen speak in new york, he wasery tough on bill and hillary clinton. maureen in the audience was struck not only by how tough he was talking about clinton's morality, but here they were in new york, the state hillary clinton represented, and the audience seemed very enthusiastic about the notion of that criticism of hillary clinton. over a long period of time, maureen was lobbying david geffen to take what he said at that event and amplify it in an interview with. she was in california at the night before david geffen was to host a fund-raiser for barack obama and she convinces him to do the interview. host: what year is this? guest: 2007. barack obama has gotten into the race and has created a lot of excitement, and in communities that are vitally important if you are trying to become the democratic nominee for president, hollywood, new york, liberal circles, hillary was trying to not let obama rise up as a major competitor to her. for david given to agree to host this fund-raiser was a big blow to the clintons bu

and when maureen dowd heard david geffen speak and get a question about the clintons and about hillary's chances, david geffen was very tough on hillary. and maureen in the audience was struck not just by how tough david geffen was in his -- talking about the clinton's morality and the audience seemed very enthusiastic about the notion of criticism of hillary clinton. so over the course of a long period of time, as you suggested, maureen is lobbying david geffen to take what he said at that event, amplify it to her in an interview. and by coincidence, she's out in california on the night before david geffen is going to host a major fundraiser for barack obama, she convinces him to do the interview. >> and what year is this? >> this is 2007. this is a critical period because barack obama has gotten in the race. he's clearly created a lot of excitement. and in communities that are vitally important if you're trying to become the democratic nominee for president, hollywood, new york, liberal circles where you're trying -- hillary was trying to sort of not let obama rise up as a major compet

host: maureen dowd rights and "the new york times" that the people who've testified in the first panel, one of them being mr. fabrice tourre, fabulous fab, that he calls himself and refers to in e-mails the committee read yesterday, she talked about the first panel in her column and said she thought that they came across very arrogant. guest: they did. it is something there that -- iit is a once-in-a-lifetime thing. it is uniformly painful to go in front of these senators who are going to say what they want to say regardless. these guys held on to some sort of resolve of arrogance. obviously they did not want to be there. it was just a terrible day for the goldman sachs name did you mention fabulous fab -- a strange pop culture references, millie the nellie, one of them was named fab -- millie vanilli, and they had a song that said blame it on the reagan. -- blame it on the rain. host: you mentioned senator mccaskill, one part of our q&a -- the q&a where she said there could be other ceo's up here with you. it is not just your firm. maybe it is a bit unfair that goldman sachs is the on